Navigating Fairness and Ethical Leadership with Hanna Hasl-Kelchner
Hanna Hasl-Kelchner
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[00:00:00]
Hi, today we have Hanna Hasl-Kelschner, and I hope I said it right. You did. You did. It's great to be here. Yes. She's written a book that I read. It's [00:01:00] Fairness About Fairness at Work. And since this podcast is pretty much devoted to leadership and education, learning and development, we're going to be talking a lot about those topics today.
And I'll let her take a few minutes to introduce herself. And from there. She can tell us a little bit about her book and the premise, what kind of motivated her to want to write this book, and what's in the book, and then We'll just go where the conversation leads. How's that? So go ahead. That sounds
perfect.
That sounds perfect. And, and thank you for having me. Um, My focus has always been on, on ethical leadership and helping to create environments where, you know, employees can do their best work. And um, you know, I've spent a lot of time as a practicing lawyer. That was years ago. And people will come to me with problems and sometimes I could help them and sometimes it's like, well, you need to talk to HR and it's like, no, I'm going to get retaliated against.
It's going to get back to my boss and I don't want to do it, but at least they [00:02:00] had a safe space to talk about it. Maybe get some things off their chest, but I always knew that they were still kind of carrying that baggage with them of of what it was. That was was problematic. And so when I started to do more consulting you know, I realized that.
It keeps coming back to fairness, which is why I wrote Seeking Fairness at Work, because I think there's a real gap between what employees experience and what leaders think they're providing. You know, I think a lot of them do believe that they're doing, you know, the best that they can. They have more on their plate than ever before, but somehow there's, there's a gap.
And once employees start to feel that they're not being treated fairly they get, they get protected. I mean, it's, it's just normal, you know, you have a lot riding on your your paycheck, you know, people are depending on you, you've got to pay bills. And so you don't want to compromise that. And it's really easy to start conforming and obeying because you want to keep your job.
And, and going through a job search is [00:03:00] just, it's not a lot of fun for people that do it. So, you know, it's the trade offs that we do until one day you decide, no, I can't do this anymore. And you do, you do move on. But that's part of what, what motivated me to, to write Seeking Fairness at Work, to try and provide a more open, holistic point of view because it's not like people haven't tried to tackle the topic of employee engagement before they have, and there's a lot of good work out there, but it seems to just sort of pick at individual little things, as opposed to say, well, that's great, you know, you're going to tell me to trust you, but I can't because I see what's happening over here with, you know, You know, conflict resolution and you're just not dealing with issues or there's policies that are being implemented in, in an in a biased fashion.
It's not even handed. So how can I trust you? You know, I can trust you up to so far and no more. And those kinds of things kind of get in the way. So, I like the work that [00:04:00] you talk about and this topic that you've chosen for us about servant leadership. I think a lot of times people misunderstand what that, what that means, that, oh, I'm supposed to wait on them hand and foot.
Like, no, you have positional power but you want to use it responsibly. And so it's about providing the support so that they can do what they need to do in order to move the business forward and everybody can be successful. So that's kind of it in a nutshell. And I think I'm rambling.
I'll leave it to
you to throw out some questions. (ad here) Oh my, brought up a whole bunch of questions. I'll see if I can remember them all. But first of all, I'll start with this little caveat because I wrote a book. It's about the ambition quotient. It's about how to motivate your employees and that type of thing.
And I remember when I titled the book. I thought ambition quotient. That's perfect. I love that word. I love that, you know, idea. But then when I [00:05:00] first put it out there, people were like, Ooh, ambition is a bad word. You know, it's for all those people who are backstabbing climbers trying to get somewhere.
I'm like, no, I just thought ambition meant people, you know, were motivated and wanted to do a good job. And so, you know, when I looked at your book at first, that kind of the same thing, it was like fairness in the world in which we live today. Yeah. Fairness seems like, an innocuous word, but because it kind of gets a bad rap in some circles, you know, it's, you step back.
And as I read your book, I was really pleased. I was like, okay, this, this, this seems to fit the mold that in my world, fairness, you know, the word fair seems to encompass. And then, Taking that a step further, servant leadership, you know, you brought up the whole thing, you think of servant leadership, you think of somebody serving you, and, you know, like a waitress or a waiter or somebody who you expect you have, you [00:06:00] know, like, and I, I think, So it's important words matter, but I also think that, you know, we need to step back and kind of define what words mean in certain contexts to make sure that, you know, people understand what we're trying to get at.
And I think you did a really good job of explaining, you know, what we're from the premise of your book, What Fairness Means at Work. And, I also find it interesting that you work from a law firm, or did, I should say. You're a practicing lawyer. Ethics and, and once again, going back to words that matter, in the, and my husband, by the way, works for a law firm too, so, you know, I can dish on him a little bit.
You know, ethics, when, when he first went to work for a law firm, he, he thinks in very black and white terms. And he was like, Oh, I'm not sure I can do that. My ethics and morals won't let me, you know, do this. And then he started, you [00:07:00] know, I guess, seeing to some degree in Shades of Grey and saying, Okay, you know, everything isn't black and white.
And so when you start getting and all of these things come into play in the workplace.
Exactly. There's a lot of grey, a lot of grey areas. And trying to figure out, well, you know, what's fair, and I think, you know, your point is well taken. People hear fairness and it's like, oh, yeah, that's that fuzzy thing over there.
But there, there really are standards to fairness, and we understand ourselves when we've been treated unfairly. So, if we were to unpack that and say, well, where did these expectations come from? Why do I feel like that? You know, we start to realize that, okay, maybe somebody hasn't been honest with us. Now that person maybe thinks they've been honest, but the way they've communicated just didn't reinforce that.
It might have been body language, it might have been the tone, [00:08:00] it could be a dozen different things. And so when we talk about, about fairness, a lot has to do with communication and, and having empathy and awareness, not just for how we're coming across, but how we're being perceived. And so there, there really are a lot of, Objective ways to evaluate it.
It's not all subjective. Well, fairness means I get what I want, and you don't, and that's too bad, which is what I think a lot of people do believe that. Oh, fairness. Oh, please. That just can't possibly be real in the workplace, but I think it can. And sometimes even being told something that's inconvenient or uncomfortable, depending on somebody shares that information with you and explains why.
Suddenly, it may make sense, and you know, like just the example that you gave about your husband, and you know, being in this new environment for him, at first it was like, whoa, this doesn't sound right, but oh well, okay, maybe I can see there are shades of [00:09:00] gray, and that there are trade offs, and those things aren't always so black and white, but a lot of that has to do with how a leader communicates.
And how aware they are of their own biases, how they present themselves, and how they're being perceived. So, it really does require a good deal of awareness, which, as people are being asked to do more and more with less and less, that's hard. It really is. I mean, the concepts are simple and straightforward, but applying them, not so
much.
Awesome. Exactly. And that's, that's around the subject of legal, of being in the legal world. Sorry, my nose is going to run a little bit here. But I remember when I was 18, I think, 19, somewhere around that, I interviewed for a job with a public defender. Oh, yeah. And being very outspoken. And we'll get into this a little bit too about, you know, how hard it is [00:10:00] nowadays to get a job when you don't have one.
So everybody does everything they can to kind of preserve what job they currently have. But in the interview, I guess I must not have cared whether I got the job or not. I remember asking him, I was like, how can you defend people that you know are guilty? And he was like, Oh, okay. And he said, Well, think about this.
Even if somebody's guilty, don't you think, first of all, that they don't, that to be fair, don't they have a right to representation and not just, you know, some guy off the street representing you, but, you know, meaningful representation in the court, within the court system. And he says, sometimes it's a matter of just trying to get the best deal that you can.
Going into it knowing that your client is guilty, but trying to minimize, you know, the amount of time served or whatever in a trade off for good behavior or some other type of community service or something, you know, and I thought, [00:11:00] Oh, that makes sense. Okay, I guess there is a place in this world for public defenders and yeah.
Oddly enough, I got the job, which is kind of weird.
Yep. Things, things happen. And, and, you know, but you raised an interesting point right there about being able to have the conversation in order to sort of open up your horizons about, you know, somebody else views it differently. And I think sometimes when there's unfairness in the workplace, Managers shut down that conversation when in real, in reality, if somebody walks in and they're all tanked up in awe, you know, I got a problem, I talked to you and, and, and they're almost afraid they're going to start breaking down and crying instead of saying, tell me more, especially if that person comes in and says, you did that, that, that instead of saying, tell me more, they try and shut it down and make it go away as fast as possible.
Well, that's not really helpful in terms of the relationship as opposed to like what happened in that interview that you experienced where [00:12:00] somebody explained a different point of view. Now, maybe you would have agreed with them or didn't agree with them, and that's fine. But at least you heard and were open to somebody else's experience in that world.
And another point of view, which, you know, if you didn't have that conversation, and this is why communication is so, so critical in all of this, you would have missed out on that.
Yeah, and I would, I was grateful. I was grateful that he was patient enough with me to educate me a little bit more, you know, about how, how things work.
And since that time, I, I've always had a passion. There was a part of me that wanted to be a lawyer, but it was like I don't think I can do that. So I, I kind of went down the paralegal route for a while, but, so I've always had an interest in that. And so I, I tend to watch a lot of, you know, court cases and, and, and I'm always, amazed sometimes.
I'm like, why did the judge decide that? And then my daughter just went through a really nasty custody battle. [00:13:00] And she had to go to court to maintain custody of her child for, I mean, she was a good girl. Wasn't like she, you know, had a lot of issues in terms of, you know, drug abuse or, you know, other reasons why a judge would take a child away.
She was, she was a wonderful mother, but there was just a lot of, you know, Yeah, we won't even go there. But I remember just sometimes listening to the judge and thinking, why, why would, you know, is that fair? Is that right? And I think in the work world, it made me think back to my own experience in the work world.
Like a lot of times our managers, our bosses, you know, we don't understand why they make the decisions they don't, we don't understand all that goes into the decision. And so we judge them. Based off the limited amount of information that we have, thinking, Oh, that isn't fair. That isn't right. And if we could trust, if we had that relationship of trust, we could [00:14:00] walk into our boss and say, Hey, I You know, I don't think this is going right.
I don't think this is fair. Can we have a discussion about it? I, I think most people, and especially nowadays, I mean, I've never had a problem getting work until after the pandemic and after the pandemic, even during the pandemic, I was okay getting work because as an independent consultant, you know, you're always looking for work.
And it's just been a struggle to get work and. You know, the world is changing. And I'm in a space where AI is kind of taking over. And that brings a whole new set of ethics and morals and things with it. And so that's been kind of a passion of mine is working on this idea of harmonic leadership, where we bring in conscious leadership, servant leadership, quiet leadership, to make sure that these new technologies are going to be implemented with, you know, ethics and morals.
And. [00:15:00] I've, you know, interacted with some people and of course they say that they're using these tools ethically and I'm like, but, you know, I'll see things and think, oh, but it doesn't appear that you are, but I don't have that relationship of trust where I feel like I can say, hey, it doesn't appear that you're doing that.
Maybe you are. So I'm a little reluctant to go to them and say, hey, you know, What's, what's happening here, and I realize that sometimes a boss can share, you know, their, a lot of information with you, but there's times when they can't. So from your perspective as a manager, as a, you know, CEO or whatever, when there's information you can't share, how do you communicate effectively with somebody who feels like maybe they're not being treated fairly Well,
I think about it in terms of that person needs to be heard first.
You know, so it's, [00:16:00] it's one thing to say, okay, I'm going to make the decision in terms of how we use AI or whatever the, the issue happens to be, but to be able to have the relationship. So, A, you feel comfortable walking in to say, Hannah, you know, I want to talk to you about this. This, it doesn't feel right.
It doesn't sound right. I see, you know, X, Y, Z as a consequence. Is this really what we want? How did we get here in order to learn more as opposed to maybe there are some things I can't share and that's okay. If they're, if they're confidential, they're confidential, but I think it's still possible for somebody to provide an employee or a vendor, a consultant such as yourself with a kind of broad brush as far as first, let me hear what you have to say and depending on, you know, how I want to process it, maybe I need some time to process it.
Maybe it's something that should get me to reconsider, but let's, for the sake of discussion here, [00:17:00] say it doesn't get me to reconsider. You know, one thing I think I could do to help, and you tell me if this would help, is to say, you know, Cheryl we, we, we balanced a number of different factors, and right now, X is more important to us.
I mean, at least be honest about it. You don't have to go into a lot of detail, and it could be as simple as, We recognize that there may be some things about AI we don't understand because we're all still learning about it. It's, it's like the Wild West,
but
right now. The cost savings that we would benefit from help us develop other markets, products, I don't know, fill in the blank, or because we have a cash crunch because of our, our financial structure, we really need to save costs right now.
And thanks for bringing that up. We're going to keep an eye on it, because if that gets truly out of control, we're going to have to make some other decision, but at least to provide [00:18:00] a context for. for your time. for why. You may not like the why, but at least you'll understand and you can respect the decision as opposed to saying, oh, they're just out to hurt me.
Yeah. And I think especially with the world we live in with AI, whereas, you know, people might feel like their job is being threatened by the use of these tools and people don't necessarily feel comfortable going into their boss and saying, Hey, is my job on the chopping block here? Right. The world that we live in is kind of crazy there.
I think back there was two instances, one. I actually, because I'm a learning and development specialist and I write training programs one that I wrote, and I can't remember the name of it, but it was, it was a really good program. And I remember the company was Alcoa. They had a program where, you know, oftentimes an employee will come into their boss and say, Hey, I have a problem.
Here, you solve it. You know, that, that's the, that's the [00:19:00] boss's job. That's why they're getting paid big bucks, right, is to solve the problem, not my job to solve it. And they were like, no, we really want to hear from our employees. And, you know, a lot of times employers will say that, and there's a suggestion box sitting over in the corner that, you know, all the little, you know, slips of paper go in, but nothing ever comes out.
Or they'll send out a survey and, you know, they, I don't know if it's that they don't like what they hear or, but nothing ever comes of it, you know. And they said, no, they had this program where if you have a problem and rather than go to your boss and say it here, Here's the problem, you know, fix it. They say you can come to your boss with the problem.
You need to have researched the problem a little bit on your own and present your boss with A couple of different, you know, options, and then you can have it and that starts a discussion. But I think that it's a good place to start because instead of [00:20:00] the boss, expecting the employee to, you know, fix the problem and the employee thinking the boss is going to fix the problem.
You've kind of, the boss already sees. from a certain perspective, whereas the employee, now that they've done a little research on their own, is seeing things from a different perspective. You know, they talk to some different people. And the other example is, I got my master's degree with what's called an Action Learning Program.
And it was, All these other master's degrees out there, I'm like you know, in my opinion, can't hold a candle to what I did. Mine wasn't the most rigorous and the hardest one. What I did was, I went into, you know, it was an 18 month program, and I went into my boss and I said, Hey what's a problem that our.
department needs to solve. And they gave me the problem. And then my job was to research it and and turn in a report of my [00:21:00] findings. And then from there, I had to build a plan, but to build that plan, I had to go to a whole lot. This was a large organization and I had to go to a lot of different departments and, and gather all this information and learn a whole bunch of different, you know, ways of, has somebody already tried this before?
What's worked? What hasn't worked? Start the plan. Start implementing it and when things don't work, then go back to the drawing board and for a series of, you know, 18 months, we just kept going through this iterative process until at the end. It was like, voila, 18 months is over. And did my solution solve the problem?
And it was like, no. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I didn't want to go to my advisor at school and say I didn't succeed, you know. Does this mean I don't get my degree? Do I get an F on this project? And they were like, oh heavens no, cause [00:22:00] that wasn't the important part. The important part was all of the things that I learned, all the interim reports that I had to turn in all of the solutions that I tried, all of the research that I did, that was.
But in doing so, it really helped me realize how, you know, all the different departments affected each other and how all of that played out, which changed my whole perception on how organizations operate because I was so used to working in a silo. And I, I think sometimes we base all of, you know, goes back to the idea that we base all of our ideas on fairness about this silo that we live in.
And we need to get outside those silos to really recognize, hey, that's not how the world works.
Those are, that's a really great example. And it speaks to, I think, not only what the employees experience, but also what the managers and the leaders [00:23:00] experience. You know, because it's so easy, especially when somebody first gets promoted into a management position.
They don't sometimes realize that they have a new constituency. The people that report to them, they're so used to managing up. Now they have to also manage down. And, and this idea that you need to be able to, to be there to provide the information, the resources, whatever, call it servant leadership, call it support.
I mean, it's different ways in order to. leverage and get work done through others. And, you know, when people micromanage because I can do it better, well, maybe you can, but, you know, use it as a learning opportunity to have them do it as well or better than you. You know, imagine what that could unlock.
So, yeah, it's about having the conversations that's so important and developing the relationships because the more you can have those conversations, the more trust you build. The more you can collaborate, the more it opens the [00:24:00] door to a whole bunch of other things. Productivity in particular. So, it all comes back to that relationship and demonstrating fairness about honesty, about safety, physical safety, emotional safety esteem, respect.
You know, because you can have the conversation, but it can be really curtain and oh, I got to go. I got to go and not now. And you know, that kind of thing. And what kind of message are you sending? You know, like, don't bother me and there may be times where that's appropriate, but at least say, you know, Cheryl, that's not good, but let's talk in another hour.
You know, does that work for you or tomorrow morning? I want to hear what you have to say. I mean, leave the door open and do it in a way where every way you communicate your body language, your tone reinforces that and sometimes people don't realize how their communication methods do the exact opposite.
Even the way the, [00:25:00] the presence that some people have, some people can come in and they're just really small and kind of timid and, and, you know, it's like, oh my God, you know, this is somebody fragile, don't, do not, you know, wrap them in bubble wrap. And then there are others that just kind of make themselves big and heard and, and it's like, they send different energy through the room in terms of.
what people are experiencing and how it influences the words that they say. So all of those things impact the relationship and our ability to trust. We want to trust, but it doesn't take much when somebody in power who has authority over our assignments, our promotions, our raises, keeping the job, right?
You know, you really need a lot of trust. to be able to walk into somebody's office and say, Eh, Cheryl, I got a problem I need to talk to you about, without getting booted, or without, you know, you talk about employee surveys and they get ignored. [00:26:00] I mean, even the anonymous ones, you know, how many times is it, I want to know who said that?
I, I really, I need to find out. And even if it's anonymous, if it's done on a computer, it's an easy trace. We're not kidding anybody by saying, Oh, it's really secret. I'm like, no, it's not. You know, I remember one time, you know, it was a company wide survey and I'm like, I don't think I want to fill out this.
And then my boss comes in and says, Oh, we didn't get your survey. And I'm like, okay,
check. Yep. And see, that's, that's so interesting because I think that oftentimes managers bosses recognize that even though you probably didn't say anything, You were mentally, you know, making a note of that and all I think the key here is everything is a relationship at work when you're working with people.
It's a relationship and at the core of every [00:27:00] relationship is trust. But how do you build that trust? How do you build that trust? And I think that's partly
It's both the manager's responsibility and the employee's. I think, and as an employee, oftentimes somebody will will look at who got promoted to be the manager. And oftentimes it's the person who had a lot of the skills at the line, you know, at the bottom. And not necessarily management skills.
Right. And managing people is totally different than, you know, the skills that you had as a frontline worker type. And I think. That as employees, we need to recognize that sometimes if they got promoted because of their, you know, skills, because they were great frontline workers, that doesn't mean they're going to be a good manager.
And we need to cut them some slack and help
them. That's true. But I think this is where the organization needs to step in and not just [00:28:00] promote somebody and say, okay, Cheryl, there's your corner office and here are the keys to the, you know, the, to your new car or whatever other benefits. Without giving you that additional support you know, because you talk about trust and you're absolutely right, but you can't have trust without fairness.
You just can't. I mean, yeah, maybe if you don't, if someone's unfair, you recognize, okay, I can trust them this much, but you want to be able to trust them this much. And so it keeps coming back to fairness and an understanding of trust. The additional challenges, if you will, additional responsibility that people in leadership have.
You know, you had a number of different ways to slice that type of leadership and focus on different aspects of what would make them more successful. But, but being able to provide some coaching or mentoring in that regard, and that's something AI can't do. It just, it just can't. You know, it would throw a bunch of [00:29:00] gobbledygook together and go, okay, but how do you implement this?
What, what, what does this mean? And that, that's, that's really, really key. You know, you know that I have a podcast. And not too long ago, I, I interviewed a former Navy SEAL.
Whoa.
Yeah, it was really, it was a really fun conversation and I asked him, cause you know, it was about leadership, right?
Mm hmm.
And I, I said, so coming into the private sector, cause he does leadership coaching now for, you know, private companies, I said, so what was your biggest surprise? And he said, you know, when people get promoted in the military, they're given some leadership training. That doesn't happen in the private sector.
People come in, here's your new desk, here's this, here's that, you know, you're on your own. Outside of that you know, business expertise they have, their subject matter expertise, which they may be terrific at,
but
as you pointed out, that doesn't mean they're going to be good people managers. You know, somebody pointed out to me in sales in particular that when it comes to [00:30:00] hiring somebody or promoting somebody to be the head of sales, if it's somebody who's ultra competitive, that's not really the best person for the job, because they're not willing to teach.
the other salespeople what they know, because they're still too competitive wanting to have the biggest accounts, you know, especially if it's commission based. And somehow their compensation or incentive structure is still tied to that. So, you know, when people get promoted into leadership positions or hired for that, it's really important to look at All the criteria that will help them be successful because it helps the organization be successful.
So, yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of little nooks and crannies and just being a terrific subject matter expert, regardless of how good you are, isn't enough if you don't have, you know, the necessary awareness and empathy in order to make good connections. with the people who report to you so that you can have more influence [00:31:00] and let them do the work and really excel and shine because you can't do it all.
You need them. So stop getting in
their way. Exactly. That makes perfect sense. And it, it makes me think of, you know, Fairly recently, I as an independent consultant, you can imagine I've had a hundred jobs. And so I've had numerous people manage me. And, sad to say, but the overwhelming majority of them were not good experiences.
But this last one was just a wonderful experience. I got hired to do this job. When I got to the job, They were like I, I don't know exactly what they had in mind, but when I got there, the job was totally, I'm a learning and development specialist. I create content. And this job, you know, they're like, Oh here we need you to do, you know, a bunch of data analytics and and then on top of that, manage these student interns and [00:32:00] help them with UX and UI design.
And I'm like, I know nothing about UX and UI design. I know nothing about data analytics. This is not my cup of tea. They're both fields that just don't align real well with what I'm used to being able to do. And they're like, well, don't worry, we'll help you. And I was like yeah, I've heard that before.
So, you know, after all these years of all this experience, I'm just like, trust is not high on my list. As a matter of fact, it's almost at the bottom of my list. And I remember the first time they gave me this, you know, spreadsheet and said, here, you know, this is the information we need. Here's how we need it.
And I put it together and I knew. I knew it wasn't good, and I would just sheepishly kind of went in there like, here you go, and they're like, oh, okay, well that's a good start, here, well now take what you've done here and do this, you know, and, and, that was, that was, The whole time I was there, and I was there at least a year and a half, almost two years, which is long for a consulting gig, [00:33:00] but they just, every time I had a challenge, every time I came, you know, challenges managing the students that I was managing, or helping them put together their projects in UX, UI design, they were just always so supportive and so helpful.
And I was like, wow, I. Kind of like data analytics. I kind of like managing, you know what I mean? And it, it just was a whole, whole different experience for me. And so I was just really grateful and it made me see what a good manager can look like, you know, they earned your trust. They did. And I have to admit, I gave it at first, I didn't give it willingly because of, you know, past experience had kind of taught me that, you know, trust isn't something high on the list of.
And especially as an independent consultant, when you come in, you're never there long enough to really build trust. You're just there to do a [00:34:00] job. And so there's a lot of expectations, do the job, always, you know, this kind of thing. Whereas I was there a little bit longer and they were just great people.
You know, it was just a fantastic experience. And if, you know, kind of a takeaway from all of this is, you know, if I were to send a message out to the world, there is. You've got to have your employees back, and I'll kind of end my, my part here. I keep hearing these, I don't know if you're hearing this bell, and I don't know where it's coming from, but I'll end with this story, and then you can go ahead and kind of give us your closing thoughts is at this same job.
My supervisor, you know, the boss, the head of the department is the one that ultimately was responsible for writing my paycheck. And he gave me this learning and development project. Co figure. I was like, Whoa, you actually did hire me to do learning and development [00:35:00] stuff. And he gave me all of this information and just kind of overwhelmed me.
And I kind of, my head was spinning. I went back to my desk and I was like trying to put it all together and organize it and put it in a certain fashion. And thank goodness, My supervisor, he was in that same meeting because I distinctly, I remember this to this day because it just was so, made such an impact was I had stayed during lunch one day and they were in the, quote, quiet rooms, you know how we have quiet rooms and, you know.
The rest of the room is all open cubicles, and I was sitting in my cubicle, and I heard my supervisor on a speakerphone with my boss, and my boss was yelling and screaming that I had done a terrible job. It was, you know, just, he wasn't saying nice things, but to my supervisor's credit, He said, no, she gave you exactly what you asked for.[00:36:00]
I was sitting there. I heard what you asked for and she gave you what you asked for. If you want her to go back and redo it or, you know, tweak it or whatever, that's great. We can do that. And he never ever said one single word to me about that conversation. I don't think he knew that I heard that conversation and I thought, that's how you build somebody's trust.
That's a great story. I really like that, Cheryl, because for the person that was yelling, somebody needed to put them aside and say, well, what exactly were your instructions? How was the expectation not met? How did you communicate that expectation? Because sometimes people are like, well, I just assumed they would know.
Well, no, their experience is different than yours, you know? And so being aware of. How they come across and whether they have given enough support and it's not just Cheryl, you did a [00:37:00] good job. It's about the proper information information about the deadlines. What other resources you need to have access to other people in other departments.
I mean, it goes on and on. So, yeah, good for the person who who read interference for you. And the thing is, other people may have heard that as well. So, you know, what ripple effect does that have through the organization? So, so kudos to that particular person. I, I think that that's a great example of, of fairness.
Yes. And how important support is and how it can motivate. Because yeah, you'll want to do more for that particular individual, you know, and when you're talking to their supervisor, ask for more specifics to nail down what, you know, maybe obvious to them, and maybe not so obvious to you. I mean, it's just, it's about being reasonable.
So I think that it all comes back down to, to fairness and letting people feel safe. So they're [00:38:00] not dealing with those emotional blow ups to have the conversation. But most important. to build relationships. Because too often I think leaders, and this goes back to the whole servant leadership concept, about providing reasonable support.
And just because somebody has positional authority and a big title and maybe a big office and everything else to go with it it, it doesn't mean trust comes with the package. It has to be earned. And that is so, so important. It has to be earned every day. And it doesn't take much for that reputation to get lost if there's a blow up, but if you have that trust, and yeah, sometimes there could be a slip up.
That trust is what lets someone believe, Cheryl, I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. It just, it came out wrong, I'm having a bad day. It makes it believable. So there's really no substitute. for taking the time to build solid relationships. [00:39:00] And it's going to differ, you know, in every work environment, but to the extent someone can have a mentor or a coach that can help them through some of those difficult situations that they may encounter, that they may not be used to dealing with, especially if they're newly promoted.
It can go a long way to burnish their own reputation as, gee, Cheryl is somebody I want to work with. (ad here)
And it's interesting, coming from the learning and development space, I can, I can put together, put together a course on fairness. I can put together a course on servant leadership. But it's not going to mean anything unless what is taught and what is implemented in the workforce is you, you know, it's got to be utilized.
And that trust comes from taking what you know, and what you've learned, and making [00:40:00] it a part of your life. environment at work and not just, Oh, I love Simon Sinek. So yeah, I read Simon Sinek's book, you know, so now I'm an excellent manager and I know how to be fair
at work. Well, there has to be accountability too, you know, because a lot of people think they are fair, but sometimes they need a little course correction to say,
you
may think you're fair, but this is how it's perceived and coming across.
But here's how we could, we could tweak it to make it better. You'll still be authentic. You're still in charge, but think about what this small change could mean for your team and the amount of collaboration. So, you know, everybody's at a different, a different point, but I think from the most senior levels of an organization, and that even starts at the board of directors, to make sure that the CEO holds their vice presidents and so forth accountable and that the proper incentives are there to align that because it all comes [00:41:00] back to the mission statement.
Oh, we're going to treat everybody with dignity and respect. And it's like, okay, well, is that really happening? Well, that we really will, you know, and it just kind of gets brushed aside and I almost want to say trivialized as, well, you know, that everybody says that, well, then do it, you know, so, accountability is, is really important and having the systems in place to make it work, which is you know, one of the things that I do break down in seeking fairness at work.
Well, thank you. I appreciate your time today, and I highly recommend everyone read your book, because I do think it's important. I do think these ideas are not something we just talk about on podcasts. They're ideas that need to be implemented in the workplace, and they take time, just like any relationship.
They take time, and that's one
reason why I included all these, like, fairness factors as I'm going through the different chapters. There's over a hundred of them, and even if just one or two resonate with somebody, It could make a difference in a relationship they [00:42:00] have with one of their direct reports, or with a peer in the organization, because you talk about silos, well, sometimes things stay too silent, and they need to cooperate and work better together.
And well, I don't trust that department. You can't believe that, you know, that kind of thing. It's, it's counterproductive. But if you can just inject a little fairness, and it's like, wow, this makes a difference. This is good. This works. Success breeds more success and you really can improve the culture in order to have more employee engagement, you know, better retention, more satisfaction and all the good things that flow from good employee engagement.
So thank you so much.
Well, thank you for your time today. You have a lot of good ideas. So once again, Seeking Fairness at Work. I highly recommend. It's in the show notes. You can get her book and read through it. I'm sure there's got to be something in there that will resonate with you. So thanks again for your time today.
Thanks for having me. [00:43:00]
