Save Democracy with Dan McMillan
Welcome.
We are so excited to have
Dan McMullin with us today.
He is the, I believe he'll correct
me if I'm wrong, the founder
of Save Democracy in America.
He's yeah, the founder
and executive director.
And he's a writer.
He's based out of New York City.
He has a PhD in German history
from Columbia University and
a law degree from Fordham.
He worked on a book.
He is a book editor, I should say,
and a history professor, which, you
know, you know me, I love history
and I love history professors, also
served as a prosecuting attorney.
He left his job at the Brooklyn DA's
office to become a writer, and in
2014, he published his first book.
They acclaimed, How Could This Happen?
Explaining the Holocaust.
So, On that note, I will say the
reason that I invited him here is
partially in our conversations.
He's very optimistic about our country
and even though both sides of the aisle
will tell you we're out to save democracy,
I think he has some ideas that the
politicians haven't raised and ideas that
I believe are empowering to Americans.
And so on that note, I'll let him
do a little more introduction of
himself and then we'll move on.
He can just jump right in to tell
us how he plans to save democracy.
Well, thank you so much for that
gracious introduction, Cheryl.
So, you know, after I published my
Holocaust book, I thought my second
book was going to be about money and
politics, and how it's damaged our
political system, and how it's Basically
robbed us of our voice in government
and I did about several hundred pages
of, of writing in different unpublished
writing in different pockets and
more than six years of research.
And the spring of 2020, I decided
that publishing another book is
not going to move the needle.
And that I had to, that ultimately the
only way we're going to get reform on
the money problem is for, you know,
a massive number of Americans on both
sides of the aisle to stand up and say,
we've had enough of government for sale.
And we want a reform.
We want, we want change because the
thing is, the folks in Washington
are now so thoroughly dependent on
their donors, they can't, they can't
give us reform of money in politics.
They can't fight against
money in politics.
They're too busy raising it.
And that's the Catch 22 that has kept
our political system stuck in this
sort of downward spiral that it's been
in for, really for decades, that's
accelerated in the last 10 years.
But that's really for.
I mean, for my whole adult life since,
since 1980 I and the people around me
have felt, you know, that the political
system that is, has grown more and more
dysfunctional, that the conversation
has grown more and more divorced from
our needs and from what the American
people want, that the political system
has become less and less representative
of the people and the American people
have become more and more mistrustful
of, of people in politics and
increasingly sort of disgusted with.
With politicians and with the whole
political system I think that probably
the most important thing about, you
know, one of the things that's very
heartening I've seen is that polls
are showing, you know, an ever sort of
growing majority of Americans on both
sides of the aisle, and it's pretty
much the same percentages of Republicans
and Democrats saying things like big
donors, special interests have far too
much interest in politics, Politicians
don't really listen to people like me.
Money in politics is a big
problem we need to address.
We're talking about majorities of
60, 70 percent, you know, giving
these kinds of answers in polls.
So public awareness of the
problem of money is growing.
And, you know, for me, it's just further
confirmation of the fundamental good sense
of the American people and of the voters.
The folks in Washington seem to
think that we're children, and
they don't seem to have a very high
opinion of our intelligence, but
I know different, and certainly
believe different, and have learned
different in all my political work.
And yet, even, even, I think most
Americans, I think most Americans,
and even people who study politics
professionally, Nonetheless,
underestimate the damage done by
money by, say, a factor of 10, just
to pull a number out of the air.
They drastically underestimate it.
And the reason that people overlook
most of the damage done by money
is that most of the damage is
an absence, not a presence.
It's all the, like, You know, problems,
issues that we should be talking about,
good policy ideas that we ought to be
debating promising potential leaders
who never run or never even enter the
political conversation because those
issues, those policies, those leaders are
would not attract the campaign cash, that
you need to get a campaign off the ground.
And this, this, and so consequently
I guess another way to put it
is that politicians, candidates
self censor to avoid alienating
potential sources of campaign cash.
By default campaign donors, heavy campaign
donors who can write big checks choose the
candidates that we're allowed to vote for.
And determine, limit what, what
policies these candidates can,
can implement once in office.
And this problem has been growing since
the 1980s, but the cost of elections,
especially at the national level,
has skyrocketed in the last 10 years.
For example, from 2016 into 2020, the
federal elections, White House and
Congress, More than doubled in inflation
adjusted dollars from 7 billion to 14.
4 billion to look at it from the
viewpoint of a candidate, if you want to
challenge the incumbent in the House of
Representatives, it's hard to see how you
could do that with less than 2 million.
And ideally, you'd want
to raise more than that.
The minimum price of admission to
the Senate is 10 million, but really,
campaigns that cost 20, 30, 40, 50
million are far more common, and then
in hotly contested elections where a
lot of money comes in out of state,
like for example, the two special
elections in Georgia, In 2020, where
Warnick and Ossoff were elected, a
total of 440 million was spent by all
candidates in the election put together.
Now, that money does not
come from you and me.
It comes from the kind of people who can
write checks for 50, 000, half a million.
Some people write checks
for 5 million or more.
And because, you know, the, the, the
need for campaign cash has grown so
desperate that That now, once they get to
Washington, our elected representatives
are effectively hogtied by the favors
they owe all their donors, and even
more so by the need to self censor
to avoid alienating any potential
future donor, because they have to go
back and raise a comparable amount of
money for their re election campaign.
It was reported, and this was eight years
ago, when the cost of campaigns was much
lower than now, that your typical member
of Congress spent at least 30 hours
a week on the phone in dedicated call
centers set up by the two parties, raising
money for the next re election campaign,
instead of, instead of doing their jobs.
And they actually have a term for
it, they call it dialing for dollars.
And so basically the pressure to raise
money is just, is so constant now and
so insistent that effectively it's, You
know, for every good idea out there, and
there's no shortage of, of well meaning
Americans with leadership qualities
and good ideas, you know, good idea out
there for getting us affordable health
care, for getting us better schools, for
cutting, you know, wasteful spending and
doing whatever else we have to do to You
know, stop borrowing two trillion a year
to fix, uh, to, to fix infrastructure,
to create jobs and build a middle class.
For every good idea out there, there's
going to be a group of donors whose
short term financial interest is going
to be badly affected by this and who
will block that, that possible reform.
And so, you know, and, and the donors
don't even have to pick up the phone and
call, you know, candidates because the
candidates already know what not to say.
And so.
One consequence, I think that indirectly,
this is part of, this is what, part
of what has driven the escalating
polarization in our politics and the
escalating partisan anger and the
overwhelmingly negative messaging
from both parties because The need to,
to satisfy donors, the need to raise
money has, has taken pretty much all
meaningful positive policy programs,
you know, off the table, you know, any,
any sort of, you know, so neither, I
mean, both parties in theory have a
program, as far as an achievable program
that could actually address the full
range of issues that we've been kicking
the can down the road and finding
in this country for so many years.
Neither party really can do it.
There's no way forward anymore.
So, all they have left to offer us is
anger, and both parties have defaulted to
messaging that is overwhelmingly negative.
I mean, when you think about it, you
know, boiled down to its essentials,
the, the top line message of both major
parties, in this election is identical.
If the other side wins,
the world is going to end.
You know, Biden campaign compares
Donald Trump to Hitler and says
he's going to impose a dictatorship.
The, the Trump campaign and their
allies say that Biden is a Marxist
and he wants a Marxist dictatorship.
Admittedly, to be fair to Biden, I mean,
Donald Trump did say he wants to be a
dictator, and he did talk about wanting to
lock up his political opponents, and, and
so it's kind of understandable that people
are frightened, but the fact is that
warning us of a bad outcome is not enough.
We need the parties to show us how
our lives are going to be better.
They need, we need to have a conversation
about how to how to fix what's wrong
with the country and also to build
on the many things that are right
and to seize our opportunities.
I don't know if you've noticed this too,
Cheryl, but you notice no one really
talks anymore in this country about
opportunities, about like great things
that could happen or how our country can
become, you know, how we could restore
the middle class or how we could Bye.
Bye.
Become the leading exporter of the
next generation of high value added
manufacturing goods that could produce,
you know, high skilled, high paying
jobs to rebuild the middle class.
You don't hear, you don't hear
anything about opportunities.
It's all about problems and it's
sort of, can we avoid disaster
or can we fend off catastrophe?
And, you know, this,
this negative messaging.
You know, the main reason you should
vote for me is that because if you vote
for the other guys, the world will end.
This is not a message of
hope for the American people.
It's really an admission of defeat
and failure by the political
class on both sides of the aisle.
And, you know, they're, they seem
blissfully unaware that, that
they have, that they have declared
bankruptcy and admitted failure,
but that's what they've done.
And one other thing I'd like to
say, I haven't let you get a word
in edgewise, but I want to sort
of make one further point, and
then I want to sort of stop and.
See what thoughts you have and, and, and
see what, you know, whether, whether,
you know, my ideas make sense to you.
And if you have follow up questions,
but I also want to say that you find
that prejudice of various varied kinds.
Is playing a more visible
role in our politics.
And of course, we've also seen a rise in
hate speech and hate crime and a spike
in antisemitism and antisemitic incidents
that are, that are very disturbing.
And I think that some of this also
indirectly comes from the money because.
You know, Cheryl, you know, we're, we're
the most, we've always been the most
diverse of the world's democracies race,
racially, ethnically, linguistically,
culturally, and religion, and so one,
a kind of a favorite way that sort
of entrenched, powerful interests,
people with wealth have stayed
on top, is to divide and conquer.
You know, keep all the working class
Americans from recognizing that, hey,
all of us who are sort of at this level
sort of working class people, we kind
of all have the same economic needs,
and we're all getting the short end of
the stick economically, and we got to
get together and, and sort of demand
some satisfaction from our government.
Well, the way that, the way that so
often that's been prevented or the folks
on top have avoided having to serve us
and take care of us or deal with our
concerns is to say, well, you know,
you're not working class, you're white.
You're not working class, you're black.
You're not working
class, you're Christian.
You're not working class, you're a
Muslim or you're not a Christian.
You know, another way to put it is,
this is a gross oversimplification,
but I think from, say, for a number
of years, for a long time now, really,
from the Republican Party a, a, a, you
know, a common sort of message, maybe
the dominant message is, you know,
your problem is not, say, the Wall
Street firms that pay for my campaigns.
and all my colleagues campaigns and
that crashed the economy in 08 so
you lost your house in foreclosure
and who don't pay their fair share
in taxes so you end up paying a
larger share maybe than you should.
No, your problem is minorities
who suck up your tax dollars by
sponging off government programs.
Your problem is immigrants
who want to steal your job.
Your problem is godless advocates
of abortion on demand who don't
respect your religious faith.
And the democratic message is
only a little bit different.
You know, your problem is
not the Wall Street firms.
Your problem is racist, gun toting,
rednecks, and flyover country who You
know, we'll never give you a chance.
We'll always hate you for the color of
your skin or who you love, and who don't
care if your child gets slaughtered in
a school shooting, and want to ram their
religious faith down, you know, their
Christian beliefs down your throat.
And, you know, all these
issues are important.
The place of religion in
American life is important.
The decline in religious faith and
religious observance is very important,
and I think it's, I personally think
it's a terrible loss for our society.
I don't know what exactly we can do
about it, but it is, you know, something
that we ought to be talking about.
Immigration is very important.
Abortion, of course, could
not be more important.
It's a moral issue of national importance.
But it's also true that both
parties milk these issues for anger,
instead of looking for solutions.
And both parties increasingly, they
stereotype the voters of the other side.
And Over time, this is having an effect.
They are succeeding in turning Americans
against each other, and you do see in
opinion polls, a recent poll where,
I mean, it was north of 60 percent in
both cases that, you know, Democratic
voters thinking that Republican voters
are, like, more likely to be, or
immoral, or more likely to be immoral,
and Republican voters saying the
same thing about Democratic voters.
But I, I refuse, you know, and, and the
elite narrative is, oh, the voters are so
angry and therefore politics is becoming
angry, but that doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't make any sense for two reasons.
One is, you know, They don't
listen to us and we have very
little influence on what they do.
So it's hard to see how we drive this
and also 330 million people don't
spontaneously become more angry or cranky,
you know, this has been, this is the,
the, the anger in our politics and the
sort of negative ways that Democrats
and Republicans, I think more and more
can stereotype each other is poison that
is generated At the, at the political
level, and then it's then, you know, for
political reasons, and I think in partly,
you know, a lot of it from the perverted
incentives of this money driven political
system, the reasons that I've described.
Anyway, you know, I've, I've run
my mouth for quite some time.
I haven't let you get a word in edgewise.
So why not just take a step back and,
you know, what do you think of these
ideas and do you have any questions?
Um, I have lots of thoughts, I
always do, and some questions,
but I'm very, you know, everything
you've said, I agree with.
I remember, I think one of the most
disheartening things to me was, and I'll
step back for just a second, in the mid
1970s, I remember there was You know they
wanted to pass the Equal Rights Amendment.
Yeah.
There was this major campaign of people
writing in to express their views.
Yeah.
You know, whether you agree or
disagree with it didn't, doesn't really
matter at this stage of the game.
Because what happened was enough
people made their voices heard.
And that was ultimately what killed it.
Because people made their voices heard.
And to some degree, The politicians,
I wouldn't say the politicians
per se, but the system somehow
listened to that just recently.
There's been several grassroots campaigns
that I've been involved in that have
called our senators, written our
congressmen, done all of that, and just
overwhelmed the system with our voices.
And what they did on Capitol Hill,
because they still have landline phones
I guess, I don't know if you want to
call them landlines, they picked up
the phones and took them off the hook.
Really?
Yeah.
So that, so that you couldn't, you
can't call your senator anymore?
Yeah, so if you overwhelm the system
and say, hey, these, you know, this
is our voice, this is what we want,
this is, you know, I guess it doesn't
really matter what the issue is.
Right.
What they're saying is, we don't
want to listen to you, we've already
made up our minds, and we have other
people who are driving this agenda.
And I do agree that it's gotten
significantly worse you know,
since, you know, the 70s, 80s,
that time, that time frame.
But even still, being a
professor of history, you know,
you kind of, I'm sure agree.
Politics has always been
a blood sport, you know.
And if we go clear back to the early
days of Our founding of our country.
I mean, Aaron Burr got shot, you
know, by his political opponent, you
know, I don't pretend to think that
back then is as bad as it was today
as it is today, but it still is.
I think part of the reason
is because of the media.
I think the media plays a huge role.
in driving this division.
And it doesn't matter which side of the
political spectrum you're on, depends on
which, if you listen to this media, you're
going to hear how bad these people are.
If you listen to this media, you're
going to hear how bad the other side is.
And they humanize each other.
And they, and, and, but it's,
what's interesting to me is I
have people who think totally
different than I do politically.
We're worlds apart on where we are
politically, and yet we're still friends.
We still hang out together.
We still have conversations and I highly
respect her and I understand where her
ideas and her thought processes come from.
She thinks the same of
me and I, it's rare.
It's interesting.
It's rare to have that kind of
relationship with other people.
It isn't rare.
Do you know what I mean?
It's rare to have, you know,
it's become, it's becoming more
and more rare, unfortunately.
And.
I just think, you know, like,
even when we have the debates, you
have to poll at a certain number.
You have to have so many
donations from so many people.
And why?
Why?
If I'm running for president,
why can't I be on the stage?
Why?
Even if there's 20 people.
Then there's 20 people and you
know, it'll, it'll filter down,
you know, who wants to listen
to 20 people for five hours?
I must admit it's kind of, would be
interesting, but still, I, I don't
think that the criteria for being on
the stage should be how much money
you can raise or, you know, what your
poll numbers are, because your poll
numbers might simply be a reflection
of the fact that you don't have a lot
of money and you're not getting a lot
of traction because you're not getting.
Enough media attention.
The media hasn't dubbed
you as their darling.
Well, also, if you haven't raised
money up to a certain level, the
media decide that you're not viable.
That's usually kind of the term.
And then you get zero, you get almost,
you get no coverage or, and the
coverage you do get is disparaging.
They'll talk about you as if you're
sort of a wingnut, you know, or they'll
describe your campaign as chaotic,
you know, or delusional or whatever.
I mean, we have had some pretty weird
people running, that is also true, but
but, but the fact is, yeah, I mean,
the, the, the thing is without, without
the money, I mean, money, spending,
spending, having more money than your
opponent doesn't guarantee victory, but
without a very large amount of money,
you are not viable for national office.
It's increasingly for state office too.
So, and that's, that's really, in
that sense, the money is, yeah.
The donors are the gatekeepers.
Again, that's really kind of how
they choose the candidates and limit.
So, now that I've gotten everyone
thoroughly depressed, maybe, maybe
we should talk about my dastardly
plot to save the Republic and
how I think we can fix this.
I think so, but I, I would also
like you to kind of frame it
a little bit from this aspect.
I've said for, I don't know, a
long time, decades, that We, as the
population, are pawns in their game.
They're the kings and
queens on the chessboard.
We're the pawns, and I, I do
believe we have reached a point
where they've eliminated all the
pawns on the, on the chessboard.
We're not, we are no longer even needed.
I don't believe, you know, I don't want
to go down the whole rabbit hole of, you
know, election integrity and everything.
But I don't believe that our
votes, whether they don't count.
Because of all the money involved
or whether they simply don't count
because they don't count, you know,
I see what you're saying.
Yeah.
And so what hope do we have of
resurrecting this when all that's left on
the chessboard are the kings and queens?
I still think that they do need to
get our vote to get into office.
I mean, of course, there is the
dispute about whether there has been
election fraud and I actually am not
going to comment on that because I
need to remain completely nonpartisan.
And that has become a highly
disputed partisan issue.
But I think that.
I think in, we'll put it this way, in
all the, in all the midterm elections,
hardly anyone, basically hardly anyone,
claimed that they'd been voting fraud.
It seemed like everyone felt that their,
that the votes were counted, at least
that the votes were counted accurately.
They may not have been happy with the
result, but, I didn't really hear.
I mean, there were a few people who
lost who claim that they've been
fraud, but it it didn't take hold.
It wasn't really something that
people seem concerned about.
So I, I tend to think that you
know, if we assert ourselves, you
know, they're, they're going to
need our vote to get into office.
The question is, so let me, and I
think that, you know, I think that
there, there is already a massive
constituency for fundamental change
because I think, you know, a great
majority of Americans on both sides of
the aisle have been saying for a long
time that this isn't working, and that
we're fed up with politics as usual.
And, you know, starting, I think,
particularly in 08, we've been, we've
been, there have been candidates who've
gotten a huge amount of mileage out of
being quote unquote change candidates.
You know, Barack Obama, you know, change
you can believe in, and yes, we can,
and there were never any details about
what this change was going to be, but
people had this expectation and hope that
somehow, fundamentally, things were going
to get better, that the political system
was going to work, it was going to be
fair, and then in 2016, it's interesting,
on both sides of the aisle, you had
changed, you had changed candidates
running against the system, you had Donald
Trump on the Republican side, Bernie
Sanders on the Democratic side, And Trump
said Trump was going to drain the swamp.
Sanders even promised us a revolution.
You know, Bernie was there with
his revolution again in 2020.
Elizabeth Warren, maybe with Revolution
Light, if you want to be snarky about it.
I had a soft spot for
her, but in any case.
But none of these change candidates ever
had a plan for change, any details, didn't
even tell us what needed to be changed.
And the reason they didn't, they had
no plan for change is that what needs
changing above all is how candidates
pay for the sky high, the sky high
cost of these election campaigns.
What needs changing is our government
being for sale to campaign donors.
And candidates, these candidates
could not fight the money because
they were too busy raising it.
And that again, that's, that really
is the Catch 22 that has kept
our political system kind of on
this downslope for so many years.
And it's, it's also been a problem
that most Americans aren't able, have
been unable to understand precisely for
the reason I said, you know, because
you can't fight what you can't see,
and the way that the self censorship
by money has kind of hollowed out the
conversation and foreclosed all options.
And turned the whole political
conversation into empty
slogans the way it has.
That's not only is that something that's
invisible, it's kind of unimaginable.
No one has known that it's there.
No one has pointed it out.
And so that's, that's why things
have gotten as bad as they have.
But the thing is, all I think that
the American people really need is
It is a, it is a concrete, practical,
achievable, you know, first step
that, you know, a rounding point,
an actual plan for change that would
bring substantial change and that
Republicans and Democrats can agree on.
And, you know, I, as I say, I did
all this research for this book.
Part of what I wanted to do is to find
what's the best reform idea out there.
And I finally came across
this idea of voter dollars.
It's also been called democracy dollars,
democracy vouchers, and they've been
using it in Seattle since 2017 for
city elections and quite successfully.
It's, it's really done some good
things for the, for the city.
And the principle is wonderfully simple.
It's since the only people with really
any influence in Washington anymore
are heavy campaign donors, we make
ourselves the donors, and the government
would get very registered voter.
An online account of campaign cash, 100
per voter in a presidential year, 50
per voter in the midterms, which are
cheaper, can't take the money out and
spend it, but you go online and assign
it to the candidates you want to support.
You can't and once we have this system,
candidates who want to serve us can
raise enough money from us to run a
competitive campaign, and their opponents
no longer have much excuse for taking
money from big business and billionaires.
Thank you very much.
Now, the reason also why we have to,
the only path to fixing the system,
public financing mechanism, because the
Supreme Court decided already back in
the 70s that money spent to influence
elections, like through donations or by,
or by buying ads for someone, Is itself
free speech, protected by the First
Amendment, and up to that point, free
speech meant what you and I are doing.
We exchange our ideas, we express
our opinion, we speak freely.
It didn't include the money that you
might spend to purchase an audience
for your speech by buying campaign
ads, or what are the point these
days by drowning out someone else's
speech by, you know, with the, with
You know, 20 million in an ad buy.
So because of that, the court,
and then the court's just sort
of built on that very bad idea.
Citizens United is one of the more
recent cases that kind of took that bad
idea to its most ridiculous conclusion.
So they won't let us.
limit anyone's donation or spending.
So the only path to, to a game
changing reform is a public financing
mechanism where we make an alternative
pool available to candidates that's
controlled by us, the people.
And that's really the way forward.
Now One objection people have
raised to this, they say, well, if
we're not allowed to limit what the
billionaires give, won't they just
swamp the system with more billions?
And it's worth noting that
actually Jeff Bezos and his cronies
tried that in Seattle in 2018.
They decided they wanted a city
council that was more to their liking
and they put, One and a half million
dollars into seven city council
races, which was unprecedented.
And the people of Seattle, having already
been sort of educated about the importance
of money in politics by the campaign.
It was a ballot initiative
campaign that established the
democracy voucher system there.
They understood, holy cow, these
guys trying to buy our government.
And it completely backfired on Bezos.
Everyone was outraged.
His candidates went down to defeat.
And so I think that going forward, even
though, strictly speaking, we can't
prevent for public, you know, billionaires
and special interests from offering,
throwing money at candidates, candidates
who accept that help, I think are probably
going to find that it's politically toxic.
And you know, none of us has a crystal
ball, but at a minimum, what it does
is it levels the playing field enough
so that That people who who aren't,
you know, who want to serve us can
get a viable campaign off the ground.
And also what's nice about it is
that We can get Americans, you
know, from all walks of life.
Right now, the Congress is a
millionaire's club, because to challenge
an incumbent, you kind of have to be a
millionaire with millionaire friends,
so you can hold a fundraiser at the
country club that you all belong to.
But now, with, if you've got, you know,
if you, if you, you know, especially
if you've got a little social media
savvy and can get the word out that
way, if you've got some good ideas.
and good people skills and you've
got the gumption to lead, you
know, we can get local primary care
physicians, we can get nurses, we can
get school teachers, police officers.
Fire chiefs, small business owners
Americans from all walks of life, so
that all of our needs and our interests
and our point of view and our ideas
are represented in the government will
get much better people in Congress.
'cause we have a much bigger talent pool.
Right now, the talent pose millionaires,
there are only so many of them.
So it's also not surprising that
that, that some of the people in
Congress are behaving in a way
that's not too impressive these days.
So.
So that's, that's the
voter dollars concept.
Now, as I said before, you know,
Washington's not going to give this to us.
I don't waste a minute of my time calling
my, you know, calling my senator or
my representative, my senators or my
representative, or trying to lobby them,
because Even if they wanted to help me,
they couldn't because they're trapped.
They're stuck on the
fundraising treadmill.
And I think a lot of those people in
Washington would like nothing better
than to get off the fundraising
treadmill and actually like do the
right thing and serve the common good.
But they can't, they're stuck.
So we, the people, I mean, one way of
describing what we have to do is we're,
we kind of need to set our, we need
to set the folks in Washington free
to serve us, but what does that mean?
When I, we need massive support,
but I mean massive, I think the
only way this happens is if the
money problem and the voter dollars
solution becomes a top five issue.
In the national conversation in the
presidential election year, and that's,
you know, and a lot of people I talk to
just think that's an impossibly heavy
lift, and, and I understand that, but
I think they're wrong, you know, for,
because again, I think that, I think
Americans, I think that we want, we
know, we, I think the overwhelming
majority of us, regardless of party,
we know this isn't working, we want
this to change, we want government by
the people, we want our rightful say in
how we are governed, We're Americans.
We're the people who invented democracy.
You know, it's not right.
It's, I mean, this, this current
system is un American, really,
among many other things that it is.
And the thing is, and the thing
about voter dollars is it has,
it's just, it politically, it
has so many things going for it.
You can summarize it in four
words, make voters the donors.
It's common sense.
Whoever pays the piper calls the tune.
If we want to call the tune in Washington,
we're going to have to pay that piper.
We're going to have to
fund those campaigns.
It's, it directly empowers voters.
Right now, so many Americans
feel so discouraged.
We feel powerless because to a very
large degree, we are powerless.
I mean, we should still all vote, and it
does matter who's the next president and
who controls Congress, but ultimately, our
vote doesn't count for anywhere near what
it deserves to count, what it should, what
our founding fathers wanted to count for.
And what this does is it says here,
we, we will literally put the coin of
political influence into your hands.
to do is you see fit and candidates are
going to have to come to you and ask you
not only for your vote, but for something
needs a lot more urgently, which is
the, which is the cash without which
they can't ask anyone for their vote.
So you're, you know, it's just, it really
gives, it kind of shows people, this is
how you get back in the driver's seat.
And I think finally, best of all, this
is something that I find absolutely has.
Bipartisan support.
I get as much enthusiasm from
Republicans as I do from Democrats.
Sometimes there's a little hesitation
among Republicans because if you
say the words campaign finance
reform, that's sort of coded as
a Democratic Party wishlist item.
But the reality is that no one in either
party in Washington has done anything
meaningful on money in politics since
McCain Feingold in 2002, you know.
That was a bipartisan,
you know, law in 2002.
There have been a few people on the
left, like Bernie Sanders, who've made
a little noise about money in politics,
but they haven't offered a solution.
And they're going to be making a
lot less noise going forward because
they're desperate for money also.
And the thing is, no matter You
know, how we, how much we disagree
on abortion, guns, any other issue.
None of us are okay with our government
being for sale and and I, I, I, and I've
demonstrated the, the, the cross partisan
appeal of this in a number of ways.
I got a lot of different
data that show this.
One is that I've had more than
almost 100 media interviews.
on outlets that run the gamut from, from
very progressive to very conservative,
per probably 60 percent to two thirds
on conservative talk radio, because
talk radio leans more conservative.
And, you know, even though, you
know, they're Republicans and
supposedly campaign finance reform is
something Democrats want, I explain
this to them, and I just talk about
money in politics, and they, they
are very enthusiastic about this.
You know, I mean, in fact, and frankly,
I've spoken by now to at least a
thousand Americans, one on one or in
small groups since I started this, and
Americans from different parts of the
country, all walks of life, all political
stripes, I'd say 95 percent of the
people I talk to just love this idea.
They agree with me.
Oh, God, money is a huge problem.
Voter dollars, great idea.
It's so practical, so common sense.
Most of those people say in the next
sentence, but you'll never make it happen.
But, you know, One, you know, my
rejoinder to that is, well, if, if
everyone, if you all think it's such,
if everyone thinks it's a great idea,
then how do we not make it happen?
You know, how is it impossible?
But beyond that, but, but getting
back to its political, the, another
reason that I know, finally, that
may be the most scientific reason I
know that it has crossbars and appeal
is I, I, I commissioned, paid for a
detailed survey of 700 New Hampshire
voters in last year very detailed
survey and about money in politics.
I found sky high levels of outrage
about money in politics across the
board and very receptive audience.
It was like we presented, you know, first
you present, you know, talk about money
in politics, present voter dollars reform.
What's your initial impression?
Then, and we take, you
know, we figure that out.
Then we tested a bunch of different
messages about voter dollars on them, and
then asked them at the end of the survey,
you know, do you approve or disapprove?
And we had majority
approval across the board.
Stronger among Independents and
Democrats than among Republicans, but
still a majority among Republicans.
I don't want to overplay this.
A lot of this support is
simply somewhat support.
But this is the first time these
people have ever heard of this idea,
and you don't win everyone over to
an innovative, important new idea
the first time they hear about it.
They got to hear about
it four or five times.
But, and one other thing I guess, you
know, and what I've really been finding
and leaning into more and more is
that this is a unifying issue that can
bring us together and help kind of over
dial back the partisan anger because,
because it's, you know, we're, we're
all, what I like to say, whatever I can
is that, you know, our fellow Americans
are not the enemy, the money's the
enemy, and it's the enemy of us all.
I mean, it's even the enemy of
the donors who give it, because
the system has become so unstable,
even they don't get what they need.
And that's another reason why people
tell me, once you get traction, you'll be
crushed under an avalanche of big money.
And negative advertising, but the thing
is and, and yeah, look, I don't, I don't
check my, my mailbox on a daily basis
looking for a fat check from the U.
S.
Chamber of Commerce or Koch
Industries to support my undertaking,
but these people aren't dumb.
They know the political system
isn't working, and I think that
they can see from our messaging that
this is not directed against them.
I mean, because I don't really spend
a lot of time, I take a few shots
at the healthcare industry because
they're a soft target and everyone's
mad about it, but fundamentally, this
is not about, you know, my argument
is not that the people, the donors who
give the money or the politicians who
take it, that these are evil people.
It's that, it's that the money
has a dynamic of its own.
If you are, if you want to play
in politics, these are the rules.
You're a politician,
you got to raise money.
If you're, if you run a corporation
and you don't hire lobbyists and
lay a lot of money on politicians,
you're forfeiting an advantage to your
competitors and you're not doing your job.
We're all trapped in this system.
And I think the other thing that's
especially unifying about this that
I, and it's really the reason I got
into this, you know, is that what has
inspired me really to, to do this,
to make this my mission in life, you
know, which it has been since 2020.
And it will be really, I think,
until we have a voter dollars reform.
I mean, if we haven't, if we haven't
really made a lot of progress by 2032,
maybe I'll re evaluate, I'll be 72 years
old then, but at least for the time
being, this is my life, this is what
I do, is that, you know, this is, we
live in a country unlike any other, and
I, and I appreciate this, especially
because my expertise as an historian
is that I was German history, and so
I'm able to look at our country and
lay it alongside countries that are
comparable, other wealthy democracies.
You know, other countries that
industrialized in the first wave
and that were prosperous and first,
you know, became democracies.
And when you, when you have that frame of
reference, you, you can see how remarkable
this country is because, you know, every
other country in, in, in the world,
membership in the nation, belonging to
the nation depends on race, religion,
ethnicity, culture, language, usually a
combination of these factors and not here.
Being an American has nothing to
do with the color of your skin.
It's about being an American.
It's about the ideals that
the country stands for.
For me, the Holy Trinity of American
ideals is individual freedom,
equality of opportunity, government
by the people, which we invented.
And you look at our history, for me,
this, you know, at least, you know,
hundreds of thousands, 800, 000 Americans,
by my count, have given their lives in
wars fought for the freedom of others.
I mean, our freedom has not been
under credible, we were attacked
in Pearl Harbor, but our freedom
was not under credible military
threat since the war of 1812.
That was the last time that foreign troops
stood on American soil in any number.
And I mean, we didn't
have to fight Hitler.
We didn't, we didn't, we didn't
fight Hitler out of self interest.
We did it because ideals
make us Americans.
And fighting for these ideals is what
Americans do, and you look through our
history, we have a capacity for idealism,
and for altruism, and for self sacrifice,
in the service of these noble ideals that
you will not find in any other country
in the history of no other people.
And, You know, I'm not saying this
to like pat ourselves on the back,
and it's certainly not saying this
to look down on other peoples.
I mean, for one thing, I don't see
how we look down on other peoples
when they are we and we are they.
I mean, most of the world's peoples are
represented in our borders, you know?
My ancestors were from Switzerland
and Scotland, you know?
And, you know, it's because we're
not really about, we're not about,
we're not about ethnicity or race.
We're about these ideals, and the ideals
are as noble as can be, because our ideals
are about Not about a better life for
Americans, they're about a better life for
everyone, and that's why, so often in our
history, now, the problem is that, that,
here at home, through no fault of our own,
through money, and also I think through
presidents lying to us about wars, which
has been going on a lot in my lifetime,
our, so much of our freedom has been
stolen from us, but that doesn't mean that
we're, that we don't want to get it back
Yeah, as you were talking about, you
know, our ideals and, and I believe
in my conversations with, you know,
other people throughout my lifetime,
which is quite a bit, quite a while.
Is, I think one, the other thing
that makes Americans unique, I
would, unique isn't the right word.
I'm struggling for words
so just bear with me here.
Is.
you know, we don't necessarily want our
government going and intervening in other,
we as the people now, that's different
than we as the moneyed interests don't
want to be involved in other countries
affairs, except that we as individuals
are happy to donate our own resources,
our own personal resources to help those.
I mean, just for example, my husband
and I went to Mexico just last week,
and It was Tulum, which has very
wealthy people, a lot of Americans
moving down there, and then there
is your just abject poverty, abject,
people living in tin huts, basically.
And my husband, he lived in Venezuela
for a while, many years ago, and
he's always had a really soft spot
for these, you know, poorer people.
We stayed in a nice hotel.
But when we went to eat, we want, he
wanted to go to these poorer places.
He wanted to support these local, you
know, people, and he wanted to stop at
the little stands and make sure they
were, you know, that we didn't get sick
from, you know, sometimes they don't
wash their food the way we're used to.
The American people, want to be a
beacon of hope to the rest of the world.
And we do that with our ideals,
and we want to do it with our
money, but not through coercion.
Just as we don't want people
coercing us as individuals, we don't
need to do that to other people.
And so, I think that's amazing, but I
do have a question, you know, if you
don't mind going a little over here
because I'm always looking at logistics,
I'm very fascinated by legislation,
and, you know, I like to think of all
the what ifs, and I love your idea,
obviously that's why I invited you here.
Okay,
good.
I want to, I want to support your idea,
but the first thing that comes to my
mind is okay, let's say I got X number
of dollars in you know, Fund where I can
donate to the candidate of my choice.
Number one, I feel like I would have
to donate early so that they would
have the money to run their campaign.
But then what if I find out, you know,
several months in or you know, We always
are in favor of these October surprises
in the presidential election that oh
my gosh This guy was he's an absolute
criminal or whatever that yeah They're
not the person we thought they were
and here i've been How do you, do you
have any ideas or thoughts about that?
No, other than, you know, I mean, I
think there are always going to be people
who disappoint us and surprise us in
that way, but I think that the money
in the, you know, like the 100 you get
in a presidential year, we divide it up
into pockets, and there'd be a pocket,
maybe a pocket for the primary and the
general, and then within that also, you
know, pockets for the, you know, the
race in your congressional district the
Senate race, if there's a senatorial
race in your state that year, because
it's only two thirds of the years that
there's a Senate race in your state,
and then for the presidency, and that
will keep you from Putting all your,
all your money on one horse and it
will keep one, you know, this or that.
It also prevents sort of social media
savvy, charismatic candidates from
sucking up all the money in the system,
you know, like, you know, I think,
you know, obviously you're, you're
always free to donate extra money
of your own, but your voter dollars
should only go, you know, for, for,
for, for races in the house, you only
go to the house race in your district.
for the Senate race only for your
senator not for other states.
I like that.
Of course, you're free to, you're free
to make additional donations if you
want to, but the thing is that most
Americans really don't have enough
cash lying around that they feel they
can afford to give it to politicians.
And also, since, you know, since
our small dollar donations really
have you know, so little impact on
how the politicians actually behave.
It's kind of, there's not
much incentive at present.
And what's remarkable to me, in a way, it
shows something about the determination
of Americans to participate and, and
have some, some say in their government.
How many Americans, more and more,
have been making small dollar
donations to some candidates.
Because small dollar
donations are coming right up.
But unless you make it available for
everyone, so that all Americans can have
some money to donate, it's not going to.
change the system.
I guess, you know, since I think you
said that we're going over, I guess, you
know, let me just say in conclusion, sort
of, to people, you know, if you, if you
like what I'm doing how you can help.
And, you know, I used to have a donate
button on my website, but I removed
it because what I really want from
my fellow Americans is validation.
Is, you know, I, I go on radio
and TV, I speak in person,
podcasts, and I make my best case.
But the people who hear me don't know
me from Adam, but people who know you
personally and trust you and respect you.
Our message about getting money out of
politics is always going to be a hundred
times more powerful coming from you
than it will ever be coming from me.
And so you shouldn't think
that you can't move the ball
down your field because we can.
I mean, ultimately the way this happens is
that we just, the word gets out and more
and more Americans tell each other, and
you don't even have to necessarily be sold
on voter dollars right now, but if you
just think that this idea is worth talking
about and is interesting, if you can go
to my website and let me give the URL.
It's Save Democracy in america.org.
Save democracy in america.org.
Or you could Google me, Dan McMillan.
Money in Politics, you'll find us quickly
enough, and there are links on my website
to some of my media interviews, there are
FAQs, if you can share our website, or
some of my interviews on social media,
or just email them to friends, or just
tell friends in conversation about,
about hearing our, my conversation with
Cheryl today, and that's, that's how,
because the, the biggest obstacle we face
ultimately, and everyone who's working
on reforming the system says, says this,
the same thing, is that, is that we've,
we the people have been disappointed
so many times, and we've been misled
so many times, and we've been promised
change so many times, without someone
delivering, that a lot of Americans
have become very pessimistic, and, and
feel that the system is so corrupt, it's
beyond redemption, and it can't be fixed.
And so the challenge is to, to give hope
and the way that you can, you can give
your fellow Americans hope by telling them
and saying, look, this is a good idea.
There is an idea out there that
can fix that, because ultimately,
as they say, the, the support
is there, the constituency is
there for fundamental change.
We want change.
We're just waiting for
someone to show us how.
And my argument is that this is how.
It's not the only how.
There's lots of things that we
could do next to further change.
You know, put ourselves in the
driver's seat and, and compel, you
know, our elected and encourage our
elected representatives to serve
us and to weed out corruption and
other problems with the system.
But this is probably the single most
impactful first step we can take.
And it's a step that Republicans and
Democrats are willing to take together,
and which I think is essential.
And so, It's, I guess, for those
reasons that I know that so many people
are discouraged, and I've had a lot
of people, I mean, if I had a dollar
for every time someone compared me
to Doc Quixote, I'd be a wealthy man,
but you know, I think the odds are in
our favor, because ultimately, we're
Americans, we're not just any people.
Government by the people
is central to who we are.
Nobody does it better than
we do, unless we're thwarted
by forces beyond our control.
And the idea that, that the American
people will continue to take this
lying down, once enough of us
know that there's a way we can
fix it, that's preposterous to me.
So I, I, you know, personally, if
someone were willing to take bets, I'd
be happy to give, you know, to give
odds that we're going to win this fight.
And Shirley, thank you so much for giving
this opportunity, giving me this, this
opportunity to put my ideas out before
our fellow Americans and spread the word.
Well, thank you.
I appreciate it.
And because I am in support of your
idea and definitely want to share it
a couple of things that, once again,
a couple of things come to my mind.
That I think could probably easily
be addressed with this issue is if,
if people wanted to donate additional
monies, that would be great, but.
You know, Act Blue and Win Red are the
two grass, main grassroots, you know,
platforms for small dollar donations from
individuals, but they've been hijacked.
They've been hijacked by people who
take your name and don't, and then
they take large amounts of money and
donate in your name and you don't even
know that they're using your name.
So I think that, that
would have to be fixed.
I'm, you know, but the other thing
is, and I really don't know, I'm being
very honest where I stand with Citizens
United and all that kind of stuff.
I've got a libertarian streak in me, but
I don't think, and this much I do know,
I don't think that a large organization's
voice should count more than my voice.
If they want a voice, their voice
should be equal to my voice.
And they are limited in the
amount that they can donate.
And maybe they have to
donate through this platform.
Maybe as an organization, they get
their hundred dollars or whatever.
And sure.
So then they have, they have the
opportunity to share their voice.
And I
mean, if you want to give a major
corporation a hundred dollars.
A hundred voter dollars,
I could live with that.
Yeah, I know.
In the current system right now, under
Citizens United, they can donate billions
if they want to the Super PACs, they
can donate unlimited amounts to these
entities that can then spend unlimited
amounts to help candidates they like
or hurt candidates they don't like and
Yeah, we the people are out in the cold,
but so yeah, and I, you know,
once again, I thank you.
I thank you for sharing this message.
And I think any messages
of hope that we can share.
And I agree with you.
This is one solution.
And I'm sure there's many out there
and I promoted other ideas of my
own, obviously on my own platform
here, but I think that's, that's the
other beauty to me of this country
is we're a country full of ideas.
We're a very creative society.
We're a very creative people
and our ideas should not divide us.
They should unite.
And whether we agree or disagree,
we can have a conversation about,
well, okay, I may agree with
this and you agree with that.
And maybe in the end, we come
to some kind of conclusion that,
you know, we can both live with.
kind of thing.
So anyway, on that note, I once
again will say thank you and I
will certainly be sharing this
with as many people as I can and
thank you very much, Cheryl.
Rose, I've really
enjoyed our conversation.
All right, thank you for
taking the time to be on.
Okay, take care.
