Learning in the Virtual World - Making it Great! with Seth Fleischauer
[00:00:00] Hello and welcome. We have Seth Fleishauer. Hope I said that right. You did. And he's with Bannon Global Learning, and I'm very excited to [00:01:00] talk to him today because he has two things of particular interest to me, and I'll let him get into those in a little more detail, but first of all, coming out of the COVID era with all of the distance learning and all of the Complaints we had about how ineffective it was.
Cheryl Johnson: I would like to talk about how his approach to that is different and why he feels like it's effective. And the other part that's really fascinating to me, because I trying to put together. virtual travel tours that are of interest to kids, our youth, I should say. It doesn't, they don't have to be kids.
They can be young adults, that type of thing. And how do you make them engaging so that it's really an immersive learning experience? So I'll just turn it over to him right now.
Seth Fleischauer: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me. Really happy to be here. I always love to get in front of podcast listeners because I have a couple podcasts of my own.
One of them is called Why Distance Learning and [00:02:00] it gets into all sorts of things around live virtual learning. Something that everybody, well, nobody really had an opinion about. until COVID. And now everybody has an opinion about. And some of those perceptions are very real and widespread and accurate.
And some of those perceptions could be changed, I think, with learning a little bit more about what's available and the professionals who've been in the industry for a really long time. And that essentially is what the Wide Distance Learning Podcast is about. We discuss a lot of these perceptions and then dive into the reality behind them.
And some of the concerns, again, are very real but a lot of the successes that have that continue to occur in the medium are ones that aren't really shared that widely. And so we try to tell that story but do it in a way that, that speaks to the reality on the ground not in. some kind of rose colored [00:03:00] glasses.
I have another podcast called Make It Mindful Insights for Global Learning. And that one is about global learning, which is the type of educational experience that we expect for students who want to be successful in an interconnected world. So we're talking about issues like cultural competence, language skills, digital literacy, because that's the way that you connect to a lot of people internationally.
Some action oriented learning, awareness of global issues some local global connections, these types of things. And the work that Banyan Global Learning does is very aligned to global learning. It's in the name, and that's what that podcast is about. So where do you want to go first, Cheryl?
Cheryl Johnson: Well, let's start with the virtual learning.
Like I said, I've come from the corporate side of things and we've been doing, you know, distance learning, virtual learning for a very long time. Now, having said that, I don't think we've been doing [00:04:00] it very effectively. I think in the last couple, you know, probably, I don't know, five, six, seven years we've done better at it.
But even still having been able to, engage adults with distance learning on a higher level than before. In the back of my mind, I'm just like, how in the world would you do that with young adults or kids whose attention span is, you know, that of a gnat and, you know, keep them engaged and make them excited to be there?
Because to me, let me just step back just a little bit, some of my educational background, and I don't go into my professional educational background, because I don't even think it's really relevant. What I think is relevant is, You know, growing up, learning to me was just this, I loved to learn.
Everything was a new experience. I was just like, so excited to learn all kinds of new things. And when I got married and had children, there were a lot of [00:05:00] people that were putting their kids in preschool and they wanted their kids to learn their ABCs before they were in school and, you know, all this type of thing.
And I was like, you know, I think I'm going to take a slightly different approach. I'm going to, and this comes back. The reason I'm going this direction is because this kind of comes back to your global learning initiative, too, is that if I can teach my kids to love learning. I don't need to worry whether they're going to learn their ABCs or 1 2 3s or whatever, they are going to want to engage with this kind of experience and to make learning experiential so that I'm not just sitting down and doing a math worksheet.
I'm actually learning how math applies in the real world, and especially science, you know, that's always fun, and of course, I'm a big history lover, so, you know, let's not learn about dates and, you know, people's names and places and things like that. Yeah, that's relevant, but relevant within the context of what story does it tell?
[00:06:00] So that to me is what learning is all about. And so from that angle, I think I'll let you run with it from there.
Seth Fleischauer: Yeah, so, I mean, what you're talking about is intrinsic motivation, and intrinsic motivation is a hell of a drug. It's a pretty fantastic way to learn, and it's the ideal scenario, right? Like, it's the holy grail.
If you can facilitate intrinsic motivation in any given student, you're right. You can kind of sit back and let the A lot of the pieces just fall into place. How you get to that intrinsic motivation, I think is going to be different for almost every person because we are unique beings. Of course, there are, you know, some general approaches that you can take general categories of interest that different kids have, but.
I would say that it's somewhat of a truism of teaching, at least a modern take on teaching, that if you can [00:07:00] reach a student in a way that speaks to them individually, that you can really foster that intrinsic motivation. And Relating that to, to distance learning and to global learning, I think that there is no, like, like you, you mentioned, like, I can't, I, I couldn't imagine how you would keep a kid engaged when they have the attention span of a gnat and they're trying to learn online.
And I think that recipe for engagement is going to be a little different. different for each kid. It's going to depend on the teacher. It's going to depend on the content. It's going to depend on the kid, on the time of day, on the preparation. And so there are, you know, if you back all the way up, it's like, okay, well, what makes good distance learning?
Well, let's talk about what makes good learning, right? First. And then let's make sure that we're practicing those principles as we apply them to this medium. You talked about experiential learning and. You know, it is true that every single [00:08:00] person without the aid of the internet is limited to the experience of their geographic bubble.
And so, if you create a situation where they can have experiences that go on, go beyond that geographic bubble to, I don't know, the rest of the entire world, Now you're talking about lots of ways to differentiate that experience so that you can create that intrinsic motivation for any given kid. And I think that is the core value proposition of distance learning, is that there are things that you have access to by engaging with your three dimensional space and those things are, you know, they're the fabric of life, right?
Like, of course you want to engage with that space. Absolutely no one is arguing that you should have distance learning only and that should be the entirety of your existence, right? Life is education [00:09:00] and Simply going through your life with curiosity, looking at that flower and wondering why it has that pattern.
Talking to that person and wondering why they responded the way that they did when you thought that they might respond in a different way. Like, I mean, these lessons are all over our lives if you just look for them. It's constant. But the same is true of the online world. And what you've done is you've just expanded the possibilities of experience by untethering learning from geographic space.
And I think that's where the great potential is. New people, undiscovered places, fresh ideas. That's what we talk about at Banyan. If you can. gain access to an expert that doesn't live in your rural town. If you can meet people from a culture that you would never have had access to. If you can be exposed to some ideas that are not [00:10:00] shared by the majority of the people you live around.
These are the types of things that can begin to expand someone's understanding of the world. And in doing so, enhance their understanding of themselves. And that really is the goal, right? Learning about other people in other places, other things in other places. That is a it's a window but it's also a mirror.
Being able to see through the window and notice, oh wow, that, that, that's a little different, but that's kind of the same as how I live. What you're doing is you're also piecing together what your cultural identity is because without that foil, you have nothing to compare it to, right? It's like the people who who like insist they don't have an accent, right?
Everybody has an accent. It's just that you're used to your accent. That seems normal to you. But it turns out like you're abnormal to someone else. [00:11:00] And and being able to piece those things together, it takes that exposure to be able to do that.
Cheryl Johnson: It does, and I think there's a whole lot to unpack there, you know, going back to kind of the attention span of a gnat.
For better or worse, I'm not going to go down this rabbit hole of, you know, ADHD and all that kind of thing, but I think, Kids inherently have the, you know, less than an adult attention span. Let's just say that, right? Some adults,
Seth Fleischauer: but yeah.
Cheryl Johnson: Some more than others, yeah. As I get older, I'm like, man, my attention span really has gone out the window.
But, there's a couple things I learned too, is that Even kids with legitimate ADHD or ADD or whatever it is, one of the biggest complaints that people who don't understand the condition have is that, oh, I put something in front of them that they're not interested in and I can't get them to [00:12:00] focus for even a few minutes.
a few minutes. But you put something in front of them that they're interested in and they're like consumed and they are just like and so it goes back to what you talked about, you know, knowing your students, knowing the individual what motivates them what inspires them to want to learn kind of thing, I think is really critical and that also goes back to your idea of, Which I agree totally.
Let's take the basic foundations of what makes people learn and find a way to translate that into a virtual world. And that's in the corporate space, that's one of the things that we did or tried to do and, you know, with varying levels of success. And the other thing that I have found interesting is and this is another one of those.
I think one of the most hot button topics is video games, you know, kids will sit down and they'll just be engrossed in a video game, but yet you can't get them to, you know, clean their room. Well, I mean, that's a given, right? But what I found was interesting was my [00:13:00] son had a lot of learning disabilities, and he had diagnosed, you know, ADD.
And I went downstairs and he was only probably, I don't know, 10, 11 years old one day, and he was playing a video game, but it wasn't one of these third, first person shooter, I should say, kind of games where they're, you know, there's just so much happening and all this kind of stuff, you know, going on the screen and flashing, you know, stuff.
He was playing Civilizations and I thought, wow, this is a movie.
Seth Fleischauer: At what age?
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, 10. All
Seth Fleischauer: right, it's too hard for me, but okay.
Cheryl Johnson: And I was like, I know I was baffled, you know, I was like, what is going on here? And he just was deeply engrossed in this game. So it really made me step back and say, okay, what is it about video games?
What foundational learning elements are there? And one thing I learned, you know, is it's funny because this, I have a tendency to think that there's not a lot of difference in the pedagogy [00:14:00] between. You know, children learning and adults, but there is a few things that are unique, like if you want a kid to learn a video game, you don't sit down and give them a instruction manual.
The game is the instruction manual.
Seth Fleischauer: Yeah, if it's a good game.
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, if it's a good game, but most, you know, and so you put an adult down in front of a video game and who's never played video games and they're going to be like lost, like give me the instruction manual. You know, they want to learn from that.
They don't like failure where a kid playing a video game will try and fail and try and they'll level up, you know, and then there are all these little Easter eggs, I guess they call them. I'm not a video game expert, but you know, you go and you find clues, and you explore, and all this kind of thing, right?
So, as I've tried to incorporate some of those ideas into [00:15:00] adult learning, adults don't like that. They, this is sad to me too, and maybe you can talk a little bit to this is, as adults, I think we like to be spoon fed. Where I don't think kids want to be spoon fed. They want to explore. They want to go find those Easter eggs.
They're okay trying and failing, so I don't know. Those were the things that were coming to my mind as you were talking.
Seth Fleischauer: Yeah, I mean, you know, adults is a pretty large group.
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, exactly. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah.
Seth Fleischauer: But, you know, as you say, there, there are certain trends, right? And I think, yeah, people, adults want to know what you're about to teach them, how it's going to, they really want to know how it's going to relate to their life, right?
Like tell me exactly how. why I need to know this because my time is limited. My attention is an effort and I re I realize and recognize all this as a mature person who has a certain amount of self [00:16:00] awareness. And so I don't, I've been in too many situations where I've wasted my time learning something.
I don't need to know that you need to like front load me with purpose. And if I don't have that, then I don't care. Right. So, so I think that is definitely of adults with adult learning with kids. Yeah, they're born to explore, right? Like, and we kind of, I think that can be true of a lot of adults too but the, and I don't, there there's this sort of reality of where we're at.
And I don't want to, I don't want to sound like I'm complaining about, But capitalism the like traditional ways of learning, these are things that kind of funnel people into like specializations and and like rote production that kind of saps some of that wonder curiosity exploration out of you in order to be able to like be a cog in the machine, right?
And. And [00:17:00] there is, there are a lot of things that come along with that can be very positive. You know, in some ways this is the most comfortable time in history to be alive. But it can kind of sap your soul a bit to not have those moments of pure unadulterated exploration and wonder. And I really try to practice that in my life just separately, like how am I practice how am I practicing adventure in my life, right?
Like, how am I making sure that I'm not falling into rote routines of my own choosing, you know? But it's funny that you bring up video games. I'm in a conversation with my wife right now. I'm trying to lobby to get my son a console. He spends a lot of time on Roblox. He loves Roblox. He's probably on some kind of spectrum.
I'm not super interested [00:18:00] in getting like a diagnosis at this point because ~I think that all you are learning. is whether or not certain, sorry,~ I think the learning comes down to do these interventions work for this learner or not? And it kind of doesn't matter what label you slap on it, you just have to know what are the approaches that are going to work.
And so if it's helpful to have an ADHD label so that you can, and see ~the label that's worked or sorry~ the strategies that have worked for a lot of other kids who have that label great try those strategies see if it works with your kid and there are certain strategies that do work with my kid and yeah you could say that he has the attention span of a gnat sometimes but you give him anything that he's interested in and he is deep in there right deep in there and video games are one of those things and I mean video games It's funny, like, I don't know, I don't know how we arrived at this idea that play was bad, and I think it's related to these, like, systems around, like, you can't play on the factory line, right?
Like, there's not, like, room for exploration when your job is to do this very specific thing so that the entire machine of your company and your [00:19:00] industry and your country can run the way it's intended to. There's not a lot of room for play in there. But we're obviously born to play. All animals are born to play.
That's how we learn initially. And, I don't know, like, at what point play became like a villain, right? But it definitely did so for video games. And I think there's this, like, there's this confusion of not all screen time is created equal. And this is one of the things we talk about in global learning is like digital literacy, digital competency, media literacy.
They're like, you are making a mistake if you think that playing civilization is the same thing as scrolling TikTok. Like one is incredibly passive, incredibly addictive with very little upside. Depending on your algorithm, there's a lot of great stuff on the internet. I love the internet. It says a lot of funny things, a lot of creative people, there's a lot of cool stuff out there, and there's opportunities for self expression too, right?
So there's, there is that part of social media. But playing Civilization, and for people [00:20:00] who don't know what Civilization is, this is a very deep video game, where you essentially have to create a civilization that thrives, like picture SimCity like taken to like the nth degree where you've got like, you know, other civilizations that might potentially war with you.
You've got resource management, you've got political considerations, what type of government do you want to create? Like it is deep and there is a whole lot of learning there, right? So like, I would say that's a great example of like one end of the spectrum of like, this is not a passive experience. It happens to take part of you.
place on a screen, but it is deep. It is impactful. And it practices a lot of the things that a lot of video games do, even like a, like Mario Kart, right? Like that's more of like a, just a tactile experience, but you're talking about like, you know, goal setting, achievement, like, problem solving, critical thinking you're developing skills and mastering them.
Right. And you're doing it through exploration, through making a [00:21:00] mistake low stakes, mistakes, building up to mastery of something you're talking about in some cases, like collaboration and social learning persistence, right? Like the idea of like, I'm going to make it through this challenge because I want to get to the other side of that wall.
Right. I mean, that is a life. You've got, like, for some of these games, like Civilization, like, resource management and planning for something open ended, like, you know, there's, like, storytelling and opportunities for, like, creativity and innovation. So Spatial awareness, visual, like there, there are so many benefits to video games, yet they've been like vilified.
And this is not to say that like, you shouldn't have guardrails, right? Like these things can get very addictive, but that's another opportunity for learning, right? Like when I talk to my kids about and I talk to other parents cause like we, With Banyan Global Learning, we teach students in one to one classrooms.
So these are students [00:22:00] who are probably like bringing their iPads home with them. They're spending a lot of time on iPads during the school day. And so one of the big concerns with parents is like, well, first of all, eye strain. So you can have like special glasses to like prevent the you know, the blue light from getting in there too much.
But then there's like the addictive nature of screens. You know, one, one solution is to just say You know, here are the road, here, like, let me take your iPad and create rules so that you can't engage past 30 minutes or past 60 minutes with this category of app. I'll be honest, that's what I do with my kids, because we tried this other way of, like, giving them some ownership around it, and it's just too powerful.
It is too powerful. powerful, a drug, the dopamine kick of this of the, even the educational games, like Duolingo, right? Like that's something that's awesome for learning, but like my son will sit there for two hours on Duolingo and like, eventually I just, I want him to like, look around, just like smell something, [00:23:00]
Cheryl Johnson: you know?
Seth Fleischauer: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that like, you know, being able to have those safeguards in place and then gradually lift them so that you are preparing the human to make their own choices around what is healthy and what is not healthy for their media consumption. And this go, this like talks about, you know, not only the amount of media consumption of all.
So the time. types of media consumption. And this is where it gets into some like SEL work where it's like, how does this stuff actually make you feel? Right? If you take a moment, if you take a beat and breathe, like where is the feeling in your body right now? And just start with like, is it good or bad?
Right? Like just start like positive, negative do like a charge exercise with it. There's a lot of social media out there. It, It doesn't make you feel good, you know, like, and like, I have to do this all the time with [00:24:00] the Reddit, like, I like Reddit I like the way that you can curate your experience I think that it's got some of the best advice on the internet, some of the communities on Reddit and, but you have to be selective and you have to be You have to practice what I call hygiene, like digital hygiene, right?
Like, these algorithms are out to get you, right? Like, they are out to make whatever it is that you're looking at something that you want to look at for even longer. And so I have to, like, systematically go through my reddit feed and be like, don't show me this anymore. Don't show me this anymore. Don't show me this anymore.
And it's, I use it as an example, cause I think it's a particularly aggressive algorithm. It'll pop things back up into my feed that it knows I, my limbic system wants to see, right? Like my limbic system wants to be outraged, right? My limbic system wants that little kick of cortisone cortisol to like, to get a little like amped up and ready to fight.
Right. And I, like my prefrontal [00:25:00] cortex does not want that anymore, right? I don't want to be outraged. I don't need that in my life from the internet. There's plenty of ways that I can like go through life. Yeah. Yeah, like, you know, there's just a lot of, there's a lot of toxicity out there. There's a lot of stuff that doesn't enhance your life at all that you don't need to know about every day.
And you can stay informed without obsessing. And And so practicing that digital hygiene, for me, it has to do with sort of like world news politics, like, like, I want to see it, but I don't want to see it. So I have to practice like staying away from it. For a teenage girl, it might be you know, what kind of images of femininity am I looking at?
And how does that making me feel about my body, my, my beauty you know, I have a 12 year old daughter and like, you know, we're embarking on like that, time of awareness for her, right? So, these are all skills that I think need to be taught. I [00:26:00] think that there's a place for them in schools, especially because schools have thrown computers in front of kids without teaching any of this kind of stuff.
I mean, COVID, it was just like, okay now kindergartners have laptops. And so I think that, Schools have a responsibility to help prepare students for what is inevitably their digital future. And I think the parents also need to be brought into that conversation. You know, schools as houses of education are places that where I think these conversations can start for a lot of families.
But parents also need to like look at their own digital citizenship, right? Like I practice hygiene with my stuff. I think about how is this stuff making me feel? Did I spend too much time on my phone yesterday? When is my cutoff point where I'm no longer looking at my phone? And instead I'm reading before I go to bed.
Like reading like a, you know, a book with pages made out of paper. Yeah, from trees. You know, these are things that like. When we coach parents, it's like, [00:27:00] first step, simply have awareness, right? Why are you making the decisions that you're making? Because the minute you're making them without awareness, you're not in control anymore, right?
And you are simply a slave to the screen, you're a slave to the algorithm. And that's the way they're designed. They are designed to make us into that. And so, we need to be hyper vigilant about our own behavior, and if we can practice that for ourselves as adults, then we can model it. for kids and have meaningful conversations with them about it.
Whereas if you're just like, get off your phone, I told you to get off your phone. That means nothing when you're on your phone, you know,
Cheryl Johnson: it does. And it's so interesting because, you know, clearly Older than you and I'm old enough to remember
Seth Fleischauer: that clear. I'm not sure that's clear. I just got my hip replaced
Cheryl Johnson: Well, I'm not there yet, but you know but I'm just think it makes me think [00:28:00] back, you know when I was in high school and We didn't I mean computers weren't even a thing and they didn't have a computer in our pocket.
That's crazy But I remember girls being, you know, we looked at Teen Magazine, we looked at all of these, you know, but we weren't being, even then, taught to be self aware. It was like I looked at that girl and I thought, wow, I would like to look like her, you know, and then what do I do to look like her?
Well, I need to starve myself to death and I need to put on lots of makeup because I certainly don't look like that in real life. And, you know, I, so it was a, we didn't look online to find these types of things, but we still looked. for these types of things and looked into that, you know, realm, but without the self awareness.
And that's where, you know, we demonize. You know, technology. We demonize video games, you know, and [00:29:00] you're talking about all these wonderful things that video games can teach, but making your, you know, making yourself aware of the impact that they're having and how is this impacting me? How is this game, you know, if I'm playing some.
And I can't think of the name off the top of my head where they go and steal cars and do things like that. Grand
Seth Fleischauer: Theft Auto.
Cheryl Johnson: Grand Theft Auto, thank you. The most famous one. See how often I play these things? Never. But you know, is this teaching me a good lesson? And what am I taking? Because you, you brought up, I have a little book called The Ambition Quotient, and I wrote it as I was going through my corporate learning.
Because I was dealing with so many kids who were coming out of college. No creativity. No team building skills. No communication skills. None, you know, no resilience. No problem solving skills. And I'm like, I see you Engage with all this stuff in a video game environment and you're getting it [00:30:00] there. Why is that not translating over here?
So that once again, You know, when I, because I did a lot of onboarding with young people in my corporate career, and as I come through, and they would be lacking some of these skills, I would take them back to their video game days, even if I didn't play the video games they played. And say, you learned it here.
Why aren't you learning it here? And I could, this was the number one response I got across the board from these kids when I would really make them answer that question. Not me, but them answer that question. And I think the other thing that we do too with kids is, I'm seeing it now that I have seven, two, seven year old grandchildren and a four year old.
My four year old came just a week ago and she was just, we live on eight acres out in the middle of nowhere. She wanted to be outside all the time. She wanted to explore everything. We have a birdbath. She spent an hour and a half out there in the freezing cold making lunch in the birdbath. And [00:31:00] she bought these leaves, and she put these little berries on them, and her mother is incredibly gifted when it comes to artistic type things.
And I could just see that artistic part of her, you know, and she plated this beautiful thing and brought us, you know, our lunch, you know, kind of thing. And I was looking at my seven year olds who came the week before, and they were just like, meh, meh. And I was like, meh. Yeah, and I was like, but I remember just a few years ago.
You were just like her what happened I'm like, oh you went to school Were you sitting?
You sit in a desk all of a sudden, you know She had no rules out there except she wasn't allowed to go beyond certain boundaries, but with eight acres, you know there's a lot of boundaries and You know She had a few rules she had to adhere to, but not nearly all the rules you have, and I'm not saying that we don't need to teach kids rules and boundaries and things like that, like, you know, that would be [00:32:00] extreme, but me personally, putting a kid in front of a teacher all day long, sitting in a desk is like, Oh, that's, yeah, I don't know.
I haven't seen a whole lot of value in that, but then just forcing them into, you know, you're going to learn this math and you're going to learn this, you know, reading is no longer about, oh, this is exciting. Look at the story and everything. It's all about, okay, how do you decode all these letters and things?
And that's all part of it. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying that somehow we need to Keep capturing that beauty of learning and without stifling it by all these rules that we place around learning and that was kind of what I was getting at with these students that were coming into the workforce was they couldn't translate all that wonderful things they were getting in the video games into the workplace.
Because now, all of a sudden, they were, you know, like, perfect [00:33:00] example I, these were all interns, and you know, interns, they're, you know, everybody's famous, you know, for getting coffee, that's all interns do. I was like no, my interns don't do, they don't do coffee. They're coming here to learn, and we always gave them a project.
And they would, you know, do, you know, I'd give them an assignment, they'd come, and they'd be like, here it is. And I'd be like, great, and we'd go through it, and we'd say, okay, this is, I like this, we need to work on this and this, and they're like, what do you mean? Like, give me a grade, and I'm done. Yeah. I'm like, no, that's not how this works.
This was step one.
Seth Fleischauer: Yeah, this is level one for video games. Yeah, I mean, you're talking about a lot of stuff here. Yeah,
Cheryl Johnson: I know,
Seth Fleischauer: I could be
Cheryl Johnson: here for hours.
Seth Fleischauer: Well, I mean, the most recent thing you're talking about is like transferable skills, right? Transferring skills. And I think that is like, that's the end game, right?
Like, like you, you learn skills, [00:34:00] not so that you can apply them to this very specific context, typically, although there is some of that in hyper specialized fields, but you, especially early in education, you're learning these skills so that you can transfer them to any given situation where they might apply.
And that is a, that's something that comes very naturally to some kids. And it's something that needs more structure and scaffolding for other kids. And so that goes back to your, the knowing of your student and, you know, how can you help facilitate that transfer for this particular kid? And a lot of times maybe all they need is awareness but at other times, maybe it's you know, recognizing how certain elements of life are gamified, right?
Like, like, an example would be as a parent or even as a let's say you're in a elementary school classroom and your kids have to clean up room after any given activity, right? [00:35:00] And so there is a place for things to go. And you can have. a certain amount of knowledge about where those things go, but ultimately, eventually, you're probably going to come across something where you don't know where it goes.
And you can throw up your hands and say, I don't know where this goes. And give up on that, in that given task. But if you're playing a video game, you'd probably wander around until you found something that made sense. And you would probably put it into a category that was not random, but made sense for that thing, right?
So like if you you know, found some duct tape, you might put it with the clear tape. Or if you found paintbrushes, and there was no place for paint or brushes. You put it with the pens because they have a similar thing or you put it with the rulers because they have a similar a similar you know, structure to them, right?
That, that categorization is like a game. And, you know, it's the same thing with, like, my daughter [00:36:00] loading the dishwasher. She was really struggling to load the dishwasher. I was like, this is Tetris, right? Like, this is, right? Like, this is a game of, like, how can we get the most things in there whilst they're still, you know, have access to the bottom of the dishwasher so that they're getting the water jets and they're getting clean, right?
Like, it's a game. And these games. are everywhere, right? They are through, throughout life. Like, it's a game to like, figure out the fastest way to get somewhere in a car. Like, we started to like, hey Vita, that's my daughter's name. Hey Vita you show me how to get there. Right? Like, you know, these little puzzles exist all throughout life.
And so, The more we can model and talk about our own, the way that like our skills transfer from one to another the more that kids can start to put those pieces together. I, another thing that you were talking about that I wanted to like, kind of back up to you were talking about the like magazine of that we had when we were kids, right?
And there is, [00:37:00] there's a Venn diagram of like digital literacy and media literacy. And in the middle is digital media literacy and there's a whole bunch of stuff around like
Cheryl Johnson: how
Seth Fleischauer: to have a healthy relationship with digital media, but media is everywhere. Media is the book you're reading. Media is the magazine, the music media is the, like, the packaging of that.
Food product, right? Like, there is media everywhere, and there are a lot of best practices around media literacy, regardless of whether or not it's digital. And the biggest thing I try to practice with my students and with my kids is, who created this? Right, like just back up, who created this, who is it for, what do we think they were trying to accomplish?
And if you can just have that conversation, there are like 10 more questions you can ask and get deeper on this, but if you just have that conversation, you can [00:38:00] start to, oh, yeah, they're trying to sell lipstick, right? They're trying to sell makeup, right? And how are they doing that? They're trying to make me feel like I need.
I need lipstick. I need makeup in order to be beautiful, right? Like, like, if you can start to put, like, connect those dots you are a step ahead in your relationship with the entire world, not just with the digital world.
Cheryl Johnson: And that's where I think that rather than vilifying all of these different types of technologies.
So the analog versus the technology, you know, side of the world is, like you said, better understanding them and being more, using the technology to make And I think there's a lot of people who are like, Oh, this is a really good book, and I want to read it. And I think that's the best way to get yourself more aware.
Like when you, you know,
I was listening to this guy the other day, and I really like him. He wrote a book years ago called Boys Adrift. And he was talking about, you know, absolutely never let your kids on TikTok, never let your kids on social media until they're like 18 or [00:39:00] something. And I was like, okay. Is that realistic in the world we live in today?
Because I learned one thing with my kids. If I don't turn the TV on in my house, guess where they're going? To their friend's house. And their friends are going to be turning on the TV. So, rather than just totally banning the TV from our house, it was like, we have limited amount of, you know, TV time, or whatever you want to call it, screen time nowadays.
And, Let's talk about what's on TV. Let's talk about how to steal together. Yeah, and let's talk about what's going on here What messages are they sending? You know, I was always you know, and I always get in trouble for this but I hated the Simpsons And why did I hate this? I know, how could anybody?
Seth Fleischauer: I'm in Portland, Oregon, and Matt Groening's from here, so don't speak too loudly when you're here in Portland. I can't say it
Cheryl Johnson: too loudly because my husband is absolutely a Simpsons fan. So we had a difference of opinion here about this, but I was like, I just don't like the way, to me, it [00:40:00] portrays Homer Simpson as this bumbling old fool of a dad.
And I'm like, I don't want dads to be portrayed as these bumbling old fools. You know what I mean? But rather than banning my kids from watching Simpsons, why not have that conversation, you know, and so many things, you know, and especially with all of the cartoons and things nowadays, if you just turn your kids loose, there are so many, and there's always been subliminal messages.
I mean, I remember Roadrunner and things like that. There were subliminal messages back then, but
Seth Fleischauer: pretty overt, but yeah,
Cheryl Johnson: you know. Use them as teaching opportunities. Use them to take and translate that, what their, you know, their world into the world in which we live. And being self aware, I think, is just so important.
When you brought that up, I was just like, Oh, we just don't teach our kids to be self aware. We don't teach them that. If I look at this, and I look at this book, You know, as a teenager, I went and put makeup all over my [00:41:00] face so I could look like this girl in teen magazine. And I'm like, Ooh, I still don't look like her.
Number one, I don't know how to use makeup very well. Hopefully it's a 12 year
Seth Fleischauer: old.
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, I know. My mom doesn't let you have makeup at 12 years old. Of course, you know, it's one of those contraband, but anyway, so, you know, what does it make me feel like? And just because it makes me feel good doesn't mean it's good, because drugs, illicit drugs can make you feel good.
What do you, and you know, as your kids start getting older and experimenting with things like that, let's talk about what's missing in your life that you feel like you need this drug to make you feel that way. Of course, they're not going to be able to identify it right out of the gate, but having those conversations, you know,
Seth Fleischauer: Yeah, I think a step before that is okay.
It makes you feel good. What about 10 minutes from now? How do you feel now?
Cheryl Johnson: Right
Seth Fleischauer: [00:42:00] like that dopamine crash? Is something that is applicable to screen use as well, right? It's like cool. Cool. Cool scrolling. I feel great I just looked away for four seconds And now I feel really compelled to look again, right?
Because like, what was that feeling, right? What was that feeling there? That feeling of withdrawal, right? Like, that's where you can provide context to the positive feeling that you're getting from the dopamine high. If you can recognize that it is coupled with the crash, then you can start to make more informed decisions about how you are getting that joy in your life.
Cheryl Johnson: Yes. And I think we're about at our time here, but we didn't even talk about what we started, what I started down. I'm always into having further conversations if you're up for that, because I really would like to talk about and take this conversation to the place where, you know, [00:43:00] how can we make educational screen time.
You know, especially from a one on one. And I know it goes like we talked about, you know, going back to understanding, you know, who the student is, what are their needs, what are their interests, what's going to, you know, motivate them to want to engage with this material. And that's very important. And definitely even in the, you know, adult world where we did this in corporate America, that was number one, like, if nobody's interested in the topic, you're going to really struggle to get people, you know, on board with you.
But I do think. interesting to go there.
Seth Fleischauer: I can kind of tease it out for you a little bit, right? Cause it's not a simple answer. What we are, what I work on in my podcast is these perceptions of distance learning and then teasing out what the reality is. And in most cases, the reality.
is at very least complicated and not as [00:44:00] simple as the widespread perception. And so I can tell you that these perceptions fall into a couple of different categories. One of them is about the effectiveness of distance learning and the engagement that occurs in the medium. Another one is about culture and relationships and how easily those are formed in a digital realm.
Another one is about equity and accessibility. One of the amazing things about distance learning. is that it gives you access to all of these different experiences, but is that access equitable? Right? That's a question. And then there's like innovation and potential, right? Like you experienced something when you were forced into distance learning during the pandemic like every other person in the world.
But is that what distance learning is, or is there potential for there to be something else? And so these perceptions kind of fall into those four categories. And what we do on the podcast, Why Distance Learning, is we kind of break those down [00:45:00] via the lived experience of one of our guests. So we can talk about you know, with innovation and potential the perception is that distance learning is just a boring Zoom.
We will bring on Ben Newsome of Physics Australia, who's been in this industry for 20 years, and can speak about all the things that he does, that, do not fall in the category of being a boring zoom call, right? And we can bring in some research about all the different types of of distance learning tools that exist out there, all the different things that you can do to enhance engagement and not make it just a boring zoom call.
We bring in some of our old guests. We've got like 50 episodes in the can right now. So we'll bring in some of the perception perspectives of our old guests and throw that in front of our guests and ask them what they think about, about that particular path. And so that's like the format of what we do.
And what we're doing, again is breaking down like, what are the things that people think [00:46:00] are the limitations? To what extent are they? Are they actually limitations? But to what extent can we break through those barriers? And that, again, it's those four major categories, but we have like, I think it's 12 perceptions that we work with and break down and we're adding them all the time.
So again, the answer is pretty complicated, but there are things that you can do for each of these that can make it better, but there's also some real limitations out there and some real concerns that are valid.
Cheryl Johnson: Well, I think the answer, then, to that question is, listen to your podcast.
Seth Fleischauer: Perfect. That's what I was going for.
Cheryl Johnson: Exactly. Good motivation there. So tell us how we can access your podcast and so we can learn more. Because I, I'm definitely very interested in this subject.
Seth Fleischauer: Yeah so really, wherever you get your podcasts Wide Distance Learning, you could also go to CILC. org slash podcast that's the Center for Interactive Learning and [00:47:00] Collaboration, my co hosts are a part of that organization and my podcast Make It Mindful about global learning.
That you can find, again, anywhere you get your podcasts but on our website, which is~ banyangloballearning. com B A N Y A N there is a podcast page~
~can you give me one second? Sure. Hold on.~
~Oh, that's not a great URL. Okay. So, and then if you go to our website,~ banyangloballearning. com slash makeitmindfulpodcast with hyphens in between. It's not a great slug, but I'll work on that. I know, I'm going to change that to slash podcast. We're going to do that. bandygloballearning. com slash podcast.
I will get my tech guy to switch that up. Or you can just Google make it mindful. Transistor. fm is another place to find information about the podcasts. You've got all the information. I mean, really just Google this stuff and you'll find it unlike the 27 platforms that these get pushed out to when you publish them.
Cheryl Johnson: Yeah, exactly. Okay. Well, thank you for your time today. I appreciate you coming on. I always love talking about education, probably. Obviously one of my favorite topics, so.
Seth Fleischauer: Yeah, I really appreciate the conversation. This was great. Thanks so much for the opportunity.
Cheryl Johnson: Alrighty. Well, thanks. And let's stay in touch.[00:48:00]
Seth Fleischauer: Sounds good. Have a good one.
Cheryl Johnson: All right. Thanks.
Seth Fleischauer: ~Okay. That's the end of the recording. Oh, no, you're still recording. ~
